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Prentice Westwood Coaches join the McGill’s Bus Group

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Stan Drews

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A staff notice yesterday has confirmed that the Prentice Westwood coach business is now part of the McGill’s Bus Group. It will be operated from Livingston depot and the well known Prentice Westwood brand will be retained.
 
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stadler

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Prentice Westwood run two local bus routes. They have the F49 which is an ordinary public bus route from Boness to Linlithgow service running every two hours. Then they also have the BW6 which is a school bus route from Aberdour to Kirkcaldy but open to the public. I would not be surprised if these become part of the Midland Bluebird operation. They will probably keep the Prentice Westwood brand for private hire stuff.
 

overthewater

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So I take it the current owners still own the current depot locations? Mind you isn't there a good amount of scrap in there?
 

Bedford OB

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Prentice Westwood run two local bus routes. They have the F49 which is an ordinary public bus route from Boness to Linlithgow service running every two hours. Then they also have the BW6 which is a school bus route from Aberdour to Kirkcaldy but open to the public. I would not be surprised if these become part of the Midland Bluebird operation. They will probably keep the Prentice Westwood brand for private hire stuff.
You have missed one - they also have BW11.
 

stadler

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You have missed one - they also have BW11.
Oh that one does not show up online. There is no record of that on bustimes or traveline. I wonder if that is a closed door school bus route and is not open to the public.
 

Bedford OB

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Oh that one does not show up online. There is no record of that on bustimes or traveline. I wonder if that is a closed door school bus route and is not open to the public.
No, it is a registered public service and advertised with all the other public Fife school services. I have long since learned not to rely on Bus Times, and I would say my view on the reliability of Traveline Scotland is unprintable.
 

Stan Drews

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Oh that one does not show up online. There is no record of that on bustimes or traveline. I wonder if that is a closed door school bus route and is not open to the public.
It shows up on a registration search and also on Fife Council’s excellent digital Fife Bus Map at http://www.cartogold.co.uk/fife/map.html
and

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No, it is a registered public service and advertised with all the other public Fife school services. I have long since learned not to rely on Bus Times, and I would say my view on the reliability of Traveline Scotland is unprintable.
You beat me to it.
 

markymark2000

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I have long since learned not to rely on Bus Times, and I would say my view on the reliability of Traveline Scotland is unprintable.
It's funny you say that since the majority of bustimes data in Scotland comes from Traveline Scotland, who in turn gets 80% of their data from local authorities. Therefore if an error exists on bustimes in Scotland, it almost always means it's an issue from the local authority or an issue from an operator themselves (for a few big operators who directly send data to Traveline Scotland).

In Scotland, there's only a few operators for whom Traveline data is not used. These being Stagecoach (and data comes direct from Stagecoach themselves https://www.stagecoachbus.com/open-data), and a few operators who use websites created by 'Passenger' (Ie McGills). Operators using Passenger, the data comes from their own websites (operators such as McGills/West Coast Motors/JMB for example)

Garbage in, garbage out. And that's made more difficult when local authorities and operators consistently ignore emails relating to their poor data to Traveline or their own open data. Bustimes can only operate with the data it's given and if operators and local authorities provide shoddy data, that is what gets shown sadly. Just to give some examples, I know of someone who contacted McGills to get issues resolved in November 2024 which is an issue on their website information but mostly causes issues in the open data (data that they literally have open to the public and anyone can download https://www.mcgillsscotlandeast.co.uk/open-data) and the issues still exist now because the commercial team refuse to fix it. As such bustimes either has to keep manually changing data, or just show the poor data given to it by McGills.

It's all good slating Bustimes for poor data, but thankfully as each timetable page shows at the bottom where the data comes from for that timetable, the slating should perhaps be diverted away from bustimes and towards those who are actively pushing out poor data.
 

overthewater

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SPT has to be the worse for this, Were still waiting to find out what Mr nairn coaches new 202 and 216 is all about and still nothing on any of the public body have a clue. They accepted the registration 7 weeks ago and they still can't put the date into the system?
 

Bedford OB

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It's funny you say that since the majority of bustimes data in Scotland comes from Traveline Scotland, who in turn gets 80% of their data from local authorities. Therefore if an error exists on bustimes in Scotland, it almost always means it's an issue from the local authority or an issue from an operator themselves (for a few big operators who directly send data to Traveline Scotland).

In Scotland, there's only a few operators for whom Traveline data is not used. These being Stagecoach (and data comes direct from Stagecoach themselves https://www.stagecoachbus.com/open-data), and a few operators who use websites created by 'Passenger' (Ie McGills). Operators using Passenger, the data comes from their own websites (operators such as McGills/West Coast Motors/JMB for example)

Garbage in, garbage out. And that's made more difficult when local authorities and operators consistently ignore emails relating to their poor data to Traveline or their own open data. Bustimes can only operate with the data it's given and if operators and local authorities provide shoddy data, that is what gets shown sadly. Just to give some examples, I know of someone who contacted McGills to get issues resolved in November 2024 which is an issue on their website information but mostly causes issues in the open data (data that they literally have open to the public and anyone can download https://www.mcgillsscotlandeast.co.uk/open-data) and the issues still exist now because the commercial team refuse to fix it. As such bustimes either has to keep manually changing data, or just show the poor data given to it by McGills.

It's all good slating Bustimes for poor data, but thankfully as each timetable page shows at the bottom where the data comes from for that timetable, the slating should perhaps be diverted away from bustimes and towards those who are actively pushing out poor data.
I don't have the time or energy to get into a heated debate, and it's arguably getting off topic in this thread anyway, but I will try to make my points clearer just once.

I do understand about the poor data from local authorities and operators; I am well aware of this, as I study every new or revised timetable for every Scottish service when it is implemented. I have many thousands of timetables, electronic and paper, going back years, and in there are any number of examples of very shoddy commercial department productions. I would argue that Stagecoach North Scotland and the Highland Country predecessor have been streets away the worst culprit. For a small current example, just look at today's service change summary on their website - read about the change to Elgin service 32, hit the link for the new timetable, and it takes you to Buchan service 62; a lot of use that is. Another gem from the past was the Black Isle area timetable book which contained two copies of the timetable for service 62, which were different from each other! Then there was the Skye timetable one year which, as always, contained the various seasonal applicability dates for the different services, except that they overlapped, so you had no idea what was running during which dates. Etc, etc ...

But I have a real issue with this constant excuse of garbage in/garbage out. So far as I am concerned, Traveline should be taking responsibility and fixing any garbage that comes in before any goes out. Without doing so, they are just knowingly putting rubbish out into the public domain, and that is not acceptable for an organisation that is advertising itself as the source of such information for public transport users. They have no credibility in my eyes.

If there are systems issues that affect their capabilities to manipulate things, then they should be sorted, and in the meantime they should make it quite clear on their site when it is likely that information is unreliable. In my (significant) dealings with Traveline Scotland I have found them to be unhelpful, unresponsive, lazy and disinterested. The issue with them does not just relate to timetables, it extends to their main travel update facility. I'll give just one example. When First Glasgow's night services ceased in March 2020 due to Covid, Traveline put a long term notice on their update page reminding users in bold that no night services were operating in Glasgow. Fine. But that notice was still there months after the services had resumed, were available to the public, and indeed were present in their own timetable section. I don't know how many times I called them to politely point this out, but I got the same disinterested and couldn't care less response every time. That is just one of numerous examples, and no, when I call, I am not aggressive or difficult about these matters, but just make polite suggestions to them.

I find that a significant contrast with my own dealings with the operators. To take some random examples, I have had extremely positive telephone discussions when I have called Stagecoach East Scotland, McGill's, and notably Lothian Buses when they made a mess of some of their Christmas publicity one year. They were only too grateful to take the call, investigate the issue, and in all cases changed things very quickly.

I am sure somebody or other will quote resource issues at Traveline; I don't know how well it is resourced, but I do know I have been singularly unimpresed with all the people I have ever spoken to there. It seems to me a matter of priorities, do you put out everything you can, knowing lumps of it are inaccurate, or do you exercise some form of quality control, even if you have to skip some info at times and refer readers to the operator or authority for clarification. I know which I'd prefer. And if, as you say, Bus Times gets a significant amount of its data from Traveline, then Bus Times would be all the better for Traveline doing a better job. End of rant.
 

markymark2000

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I appreciate this not wanting to go too far off topic but I do largely agree with your points on Traveline and Traveline Scotland (including data provided to them by local authorities). I only raised it as I think it's unfair to blame Bustimes when the issues aren't caused by them as such (same as on the rail parts of the forum when people criticise Real Time Trains if a train is a different unit to what is shown, they are just showing the data that they get in).

And if, as you say, Bus Times gets a significant amount of its data from Traveline, then Bus Times would be all the better for Traveline doing a better job. End of rant.
That's the case currently within Scotland because of a lack of open data (or where open data exists, it can be of poor quality). There is/was an ongoing open data consultation though for Scottish Bus Open Data which if it comes to fruition, and if the data is all/more correct, will vastly improve data on Traveline Scotland and bustimes and google maps and various other journey planning applications. :)

I find that a significant contrast with my own dealings with the operators. To take some random examples, I have had extremely positive telephone discussions when I have called Stagecoach East Scotland, McGill's, and notably Lothian Buses when they made a mess of some of their Christmas publicity one year. They were only too grateful to take the call, investigate the issue, and in all cases changed things very quickly.
Customer service were ok when I raised the issues with McGills, it's just the commercial team who 8 months on still believe that services are operated by a brand which doesn't exist (in this case, Livingston routes are apparently operated by Eastern Scottish despite that brand going a while ago and the routes actually operating under the Midland Bluebird brand) and refuse to update a 4 characters in the operator code fields on their data exporting software.
 
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Stan Drews

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Customer service were ok when I raised the issues with McGills, it's just the commercial team who 8 months on still believe that services are operated by a brand which doesn't exist (in this case, Livingston routes are apparently operated by Eastern Scottish despite that brand going a while ago and the routes actually operating under the Midland Bluebird brand) and refuse to update a 4 characters in the operator code fields on their data exporting software.
Two codes are used for routes operated from the Livingston depot - MESC (McGill's Scotland East Ltd) and BRBU (Bright Bus). All use the former, except the Airport Express and 801 that still use the latter.
 

markymark2000

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Two codes are used for routes operated from the Livingston depot - MESC (McGill's Scotland East Ltd) and BRBU (Bright Bus). All use the former, except the Airport Express and 801 that still use the latter.
MESC National Operator Code code is 'Eastern Scottish' per the operator code database so still an issue that needs looking at and resolving. Also the operator code code used should reflect the brand that the route operates under/is advertised as, in the case of the 13/60/x39, timetables are in Bluebird colours and buses have bluebird stickers all over them, thus should be using the Bluebird operator code). BRBU is fine though.

My point therefore remains that bustimes data can be incorrect because of issues caused by operators not ensuring data sets along the line are all correct and singing from the same hymn sheet.
 

Stan Drews

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MESC National Operator Code code is 'Eastern Scottish' per the operator code database so still an issue that needs looking at and resolving. Also the operator code code used should reflect the brand that the route operates under/is advertised as, in the case of the 13/60/x39, timetables are in Bluebird colours and buses have bluebird stickers all over them, thus should be using the Bluebird operator code). BRBU is fine though.

My point therefore remains that bustimes data can be incorrect because of issues caused by operators not ensuring data sets along the line are all correct and singing from the same hymn sheet.
So the issue lies with the National operator code (NOC) database (which operators can’t change) and not with the the operators ‘commercial team’, who are using the correct codes, as are bustimes. The latter still describes the operator as ‘Eastern Scottish’ presumably because they are picking that up from the NOC database.
The NOC should endeavour to reflect the Operator Licence, and not every individual brand/livery that may be in use.

To get back on topic, PWTD is the NOC for Prentice Westwood, so be interesting to see what develops with their current registered local bus services.
 

1905 Group

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So I take it the current owners still own the current depot locations? Mind you isn't there a good amount of scrap in there?
All the scrap has been cleared in the last few months or so - there's one scrap B12B remaining and a couple of newer coaches that are out of use I believe. The nearby McGills depot already has Prentice Westwood signage up as of Saturday.
 

Leedsbusman

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MESC National Operator Code code is 'Eastern Scottish' per the operator code database so still an issue that needs looking at and resolving. Also the operator code code used should reflect the brand that the route operates under/is advertised as, in the case of the 13/60/x39, timetables are in Bluebird colours and buses have bluebird stickers all over them, thus should be using the Bluebird operator code). BRBU is fine though.

My point therefore remains that bustimes data can be incorrect because of issues caused by operators not ensuring data sets along the line are all correct and singing from the same hymn sheet.
Surely MESC is the code for PM0000923 which they are registered on and BRBHU is for PM0000003 which is the Bluebird license. Sounds correct to me!

​

 

318266

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The NOC should endeavour to reflect the Operator Licence, and not every individual brand/livery that may be in use.
As much as I have been to St Andrews on many occasions, I cannot understand this reasoning.

The point of National Operator Codes - as far as I am aware from it's usage wrt Traveline - is to reflect the public-facing operator of the bus. This is so the average Jimmy, who doesn't know what on earth a PM0000923 is but can tell apart his Bluebirds from his Brights, will be able to tell who the exact operator of a bus service is for software that is using open data.

First Glasgow has 2 operator licences, yet are both advertised under FGLA. Indeed - back before your company purchased First South East and Central Scotland (or First Scotland East or whatever they named the division that week), both the Livingston and Bluebird licences were both advertised under FSCE.

Stagecoach used to be prolific with having National Operator Codes issued - at one point, what is now Stagecoach East Scotland had about 6 seperate NOCs for each division (Perthshire, Strathtay etc.). Recently, they have consolidated them all into SBLB (Bluebird), SCFI (East Scotland), SCHI/SINV (Highlands), and STWS (West Scotland). This is still more than the operator licences, however (Highlands and Bluebird are on one licence), disproving your point.

In this case, it appears you are being purposefully obstructive to the actual usage of National Operator Codes for no other reason than being petty with open data sites like bustimes - which whilst some could argue deserve such treatment, just isn't what your customers care about and could cause lost passengers (in the case of a slightly less fortunate Jimmy that things that "Eastern Scottish" means he shouldn't get on the Bluebird 13) in the long run.

Therefore:
  • MCGL for McGill's Scotland West
  • MBLB for Midland Bluebird (and Big Bus)
  • BRBU for Bright Bus
  • TRDU for Xplore Dundee (and fly)
  • LLBS for Loch Lomond Travel (if for whatever reason that licence needs used in open data)
 

markymark2000

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Surely MESC is the code for PM0000923 which they are registered on and BRBHU is for PM0000003 which is the Bluebird license. Sounds correct to me!
Bright bus routes and other Livingston routes are registered on 923 ops licence, Everything else is on 003 so it's not what you are suggesting.

The point of National Operator Codes - as far as I am aware from it's usage wrt Traveline - is to reflect the public-facing operator of the bus. This is so the average Jimmy, who doesn't know what on earth a PM0000923 is but can tell apart his Bluebirds from his Brights, will be able to tell who the exact operator of a bus service is for software that is using open data.
One could argue that McGills can see the value in having the correct operator code because the Bright Bus stuff, despite being on the 'McGills Scotland East' (Livingston) operators licence (which based off Stans comments means they should be on MESC operator codes), they use the separate operator code so that passengers can be linked to the Bright Bus website and get more information, rather than linked to the Midland Bluebird website and get very little information. It's just a shame that they only put these kinds of effort in when there is competition and they won't ensure that passengers of their tendered services can have the correct information!

So the issue lies with the National operator code (NOC) database (which operators can’t change)
Operators can and should be requesting the changes on the NOC database. The NOC is updated as/when requested by operators. (noc@traveline.info just incase anyone needs it). And if information is wrong on NOC, any good operator should be quite publicly upset that their services are being mis advertised.
PS, while you are there, you may wish to ask for them to update XploreDundees NOC code as that is still full of National Express data and information :)
 

Stan Drews

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Operators can and should be requesting the changes on the NOC database. The NOC is updated as/when requested by operators. (noc@traveline.info just incase anyone needs it). And if information is wrong on NOC, any good operator should be quite publicly upset that their services are being mis advertised.
PS, while you are there, you may wish to ask for them to update XploreDundees NOC code as that is still full of National Express data and information :)
Both have already been requested!
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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To get back on topic, PWTD is the NOC for Prentice Westwood, so be interesting to see what develops with their current registered local bus services.
You would think an opportunity for McGill’s to expand into the Fife contracts if they wish? Was it them or First who pulled them back or lost them? Completely forgotten.

The F49 in time when next up for renewal you’d think a bid from Midland Bluebird? With changes could tie it to interwork with the F1 rather nicely.

You’d then think Prentice Westwood just becomes a coach hire brand. Already established and well respected. Might be retired in the years to come in favour of Loch Lomond but for now it stays.
 
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Stan Drews

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Any ideas what vehicles Prentice have on fleet that will pass to McGill's?
The following coaches have been seen at the Livingston depot.
Scanias MHZ9320, JSV440, YSV125; Volvos 138ASV, FLZ1918, DSU355; Temsa YSV863; and Merc/Strata minibus LN19TYK.
 

Stan Drews

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There are a total of 16 vehicles that have been acquired, which are as follows:
0126 LN19TYK Mercedes Spriner/Mellor
0127 LO18TYD Mercedes Spriner/Mellor

0800 RPP734 Temsa HD13
0801 YSV608 Temsa HD12
0802 YT70EWP Scania Irizar i6
0803 YSV863 Temsa Safari
0804 828EWB Mercedes Tourismo
0805 USY858 MAN 19.360
0806 YSV125 Scania OmniExpress
0807 YSV607 VDL Futura
0808 YSV618 VDL Futura
0809 DSU355 Volvo B9R
0810 MHZ9320 Scania/Caetano
0811 138ASV Volvo B12B
0812 JSV440 Scania/Irizar
0813 FLZ1918 Volvo B9R
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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There are a total of 16 vehicles that have been acquired, which are as follows:
0126 LN19TYK Mercedes Spriner/Mellor
0127 LO18TYD Mercedes Spriner/Mellor

0800 RPP734 Temsa HD13
0801 YSV608 Temsa HD12
0802 YT70EWP Scania Irizar i6
0803 YSV863 Temsa Safari
0804 828EWB Mercedes Tourismo
0805 USY858 MAN 19.360
0806 YSV125 Scania OmniExpress
0807 YSV607 VDL Futura
0808 YSV618 VDL Futura
0809 DSU355 Volvo B9R
0810 MHZ9320 Scania/Caetano
0811 138ASV Volvo B12B
0812 JSV440 Scania/Irizar
0813 FLZ1918 Volvo B9R
Quite a small fleet then. I suppose I was in my head thinking about the scrap. Oops :s
 
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