Predatory behaviour in German railway

[railgunn]

I have a friend who bought a German railcard. He didn’t renew because he no longer needed it. Three months pass and he received several debt collection letters that added so much interest and fines that the total is four times the original amount of the rail card. My friend explained to the German national railway company that he bought a rail card and didn’t renew. However, they insist he must pay all the charges, despite him not renewing and never using the railcard after the renewal date. They claim they don’t record usage of rail cards but I find this hard to believe when TfL can show you a history of your oyster card usage and I’m sure national rail can do the same. They say the only way to cancel is to send an email and that he must cancel at the latest 4 months before the end date otherwise he must pay for another year! He never agreed to this and the sad part is they didn’t even try to take the renewal fee from his bank. They just went the debt collection route and slapped on hundreds of euros worth of interest fees in just a few months. Even if the German railcard automatically renews, what they did still doesn’t seem right. It seems predatory. I’ve had auto top up on my oyster card and when my oyster account tried to auto top up but failed, it caused the card to be blocked and then TfL gave me a replacement.

Is it unreasonable to think that the German national railway company should have done the following instead of going the debt collection route and adding unreasonable interest?
1. Use active renewal of the rail card
2. Try to charge his bank for the railcard renewal fee
3. Blocked his railcard if the railcard holder didn’t actively renew or auto-renew failed.
4. Make it very clear that renewal is not an option and they would use loan shark-esque interest rates to quadruple the original amount and hire a debt collection agency, so that there are no traps.
5. Not have email as the only way to cancel.

This seems like loan shark behaviour and such unscrupulous and unethical behaviour by a national rail company seems shocking for a European country, or is this common in other EU countries? It would be interesting to know if this is strictly a German practice or whether it happens elsewhere in Europe or even abroad.

 

[Gloster]

Just to be certain: what type of card was it?

I am presuming that the card was a BahnCard like many of the Railcards in this country: you buy tickets with the reduction and show the card when the tickets are checked. It is not like an Oyster where each journey is registered on the system. If he didn’t cancel it then he will have been sent a new card which he could continue to use to buy tickets and would appear to be valid when inspected, even if he did not.

I have not had a German railcard (Bahncard) for several years, but I used to get one regularly, although I might let it lapse if I wasn’t going to use it for a few months. I always sent, in those days by post, a letter saying in German that I was cancelling the card and only once had a problem. The problem was that I left it a bit late and they issued my replacement before the cancellation arrived (*); the cancellation was due, I think, one month before expiry.

Those who have bought cards recently may be more up to date with the rules.

It used to state clearly in the terms and conditions that the user had to cancel one month in advance and is fairly straightforward. The Bahncard is, in my opinion, a flexible and useful offer, but it does place a certain amount of responsibility on the user, something that is not uncommon abroad. Much as it may be annoying, it does look as though there is little that that your friend can do and settling as quickly as possible may be best. Others, more expert than me, may have better knowledge of the legal situaction.

* - Sorted out with a ‘phone call to their customer office, after which I sent the card back so that it arrived before the commencement date.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes what exactly are we talking about here when you refer to "a German railcard" we really need to know what the product actually is rather than it's colloquial name.

 

[railgunn]

Just to be certain: what type of card was it?

I am presuming that the card was a BahnCard like many of the Railcards in this country: you buy tickets with the reduction and show the card when the tickets are checked. It is not like an Oyster where each journey is registered on the system. If he didn’t cancel it then he will have been sent a new card which he could continue to use to buy tickets and would appear to be valid when inspected, even if he did not.

I have not had a German railcard (Bahncard) for several years, but I used to get one regularly, although I might let it lapse if I wasn’t going to use it for a few months. I always sent, in those days by post, a letter saying in German that I was cancelling the card and only once had a problem. The problem was that I left it a bit late and they issued my replacement before the cancellation arrived (*); the cancellation was due, I think, one month before expiry.

Those who have bought cards recently may be more up to date with the rules.

It used to state clearly in the terms and conditions that the user had to cancel one month in advance and is fairly straightforward. The Bahncard is, in my opinion, a flexible and useful offer, but it does place a certain amount of responsibility on the user, something that is not uncommon abroad. Much as it may be annoying, it does look as though there is little that that your friend can do and settling as quickly as possible may be best. Others, more expert than me, may have better knowledge of the legal situaction.

* - Sorted out with a ‘phone call to their customer office, after which I sent the card back so that it arrived before the commencement date.

He said bahn card. As far as I know he didn’t receive a new card. Did you end up paying a fine?

Yes what exactly are we talking about here when you refer to "a German railcard" we really need to know what the product actually is rather than its colloquial name.

Bahn card is the term he used

 

[Gloster]

He said bahn card. As far as I know he didn’t receive a new card. Did you end up paying a fine?

Are you sure that he didn’t receive a new card?

I didn’t have to pay because I got the new card back to the issuing office before the first day of validity.

 

[The exile]

It is fairly standard practice in Germany for season tickets, BahnCards, D-Tickets etc to be sold on a subscription basis - unless you proactively cancel the subscription your liability continues. Has your friend changed bank account, by any chance?

 

[railgunn]

Are you sure that he didn’t receive a new card?

I didn’t have to pay because I got the new card back to the issuing office before the first day of validity.

I see, good for you. I think he would have mentioned it if they sent one.

 

[The exile]

Just looking up the conditions. Your friend should have a customer account with DB - cancellations have to be done via that.

I see, good for you. I think he would have mentioned it if they sent one.

Them sending one and him receiving one are of course two entirely different matters!

 

[railgunn]

It is fairly standard practice in Germany for season tickets, BahnCards, D-Tickets etc to be sold on a subscription basis - unless you proactively cancel the subscription your liability continues. Has your friend changed bank account, by any chance?

He said he still had the same bank account. shouldn’t they at least have charged a bank account then if payment fails, resort to debt collection? Such interest rates that quadruple the charge are not justifiable imho. If TfL and national rail used the same price gouging tactics, I’m sure there would be massive uproar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He said he still had the same bank account. shouldn’t they at least have charged a bank account then if payment fails, resort to debt collection? Such interest rates that quadruple the charge are not justifiable imho. If TfL and national rail used the same price gouging tactics, I’m sure there would be massive uproar.

You've seen the settlement offers for ticketless travel, right?

It's not unusual in Germany because of how the banking system works to invoice someone for debt already incurred which is then paid by bank transfer (Ueberweisung) assuming it will be paid, and if it isn't to pass to debt collection which tends to incur hefty fees. I think he should have read the T&C and will probably just have to cough up. As to the missing card this should at least in theory be replaced if reported.

 

[railgunn]

You've seen the settlement offers for ticketless travel, right?

I’m not sure what you mean. Care to explain?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure what you mean. Care to explain?

When someone is caught fare dodging they are often charged out of court settlements many times the fare evaded.

Debt collector fees are not at all unusual here or in Germany.

 

[The exile]

Has your friend logged on to his DB account at all - there may be no end of messages there. If they’re in German, I’m happy to translate if Google can’t cope (but accepting no liability!)

 

[railgunn]

When someone is caught fare dodging they are often charged out of court settlements many times the fare evaded.

Debt collector fees are not at all unusual here or in Germany.

That’s a totally different scenario though. Fair dodging is illegal. Not renewing a rail card is not illegal.

 

[The exile]

He said he still had the same bank account. shouldn’t they at least have charged a bank account then if payment fails, resort to debt collection? Such interest rates that quadruple the charge are not justifiable imho. If TfL and national rail used the same price gouging tactics, I’m sure there would be massive uproar.

From what I remember if setting up subscriptions in Germany (now many years ago), initial payment is often done by transfer (ie proactively by the payer) with following payments by DD. If your friend’s account is not set up to pay foreign direct debits then it’s possible his account never saw the transaction as it was rejected at a higher level.

 

[The exile]

That’s a totally different scenario though. Fair dodging is illegal. Not renewing a rail card is not illegal.

Not saying that this is what the OP’s friend has done but so is obtaining a service (BC subscription) under false pretences (invalid bank account).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you fail to pay your gym membership within contract hefty fees will soon be incurred, too.

In the end, when you sign a contract, read it and know and adhere to its terms. If unhappy with the terms don't sign it.

 

[railgunn]

No one has answered the 5 questions I posed. Surely predatory behaviour from rail companies should be frowned upon? I’ll also ask this on a French rail forum, I expect them to be vehemently against authoritarianism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No one has answered the 5 questions I posed. Surely predatory behaviour from rail companies should be frowned upon? I’ll also ask this on a French rail forum, I expect them to be vehemently against authoritarianism.

It isn't by any stretch of the imagination predatory behaviour. It is simply enforcement of a contract that the person signed. If they weren't going to pay the amount due when it was due or follow the appropriate cancellation procedure by the contracted deadline, they shouldn't have signed it.

They will, in all likelihood, simply have to cough up, though I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of German debt law.

You say they did not agree to it, but they almost certainly did. We could confirm that if you posted the actual contract here, though.

 

[railgunn]

If you fail to pay your gym membership within contract hefty fees will soon be incurred, too.

In the end, when you sign a contract, read it and know and adhere to its terms. If unhappy with the terms don't sign it.

But the gym would try to take payment and only fine you if payment fails. Heck the gym would even try to take payment more than once because they understand life happens and someone may not have enough balance now, but tomorrow or a week later their balance would be enough after payday etc.

How many times do I have to say that the German national railway company never tried to charge the railcard fee to my friend’s bank account. If they did it would have gone through and he wouldn’t have this problem.

 

[signed]

No one has answered the 5 questions I posed. Surely predatory behaviour from rail companies should be frowned upon? I’ll also ask this on a French rail forum, I expect them to be vehemently against authoritarianism.

They signed a contract agreeing to a service with automatic renewal if not cancelled at least 6 weeks in advance
The website is crystal clear.

BahnCard: save with every journey

The BahnCard is a discount card with subscription that lets you save 25 or 50 percent on every journey. Our trial BahnCards let you try it out for just three months.

int.bahn.de

You can cancel your BahnCard up to six weeks before the end of the validity period in two ways:

• 
  
• Online: via the contact form
• 
  
• By Post: BahnCard Service, 60643 Frankfurt
• 
  
• By E-Mail: bahncard-service@bahn.de

OR:


Simply use your customer account:

1. 
   
2. Log in to your customer account via bahn.de or in the DB Navigator app.
3. 
   
4. Under "BahnCard" you can find out whether you can cancel.
5. 
   
6. If cancellation is possible, confirm by clicking "Cancel BahnCard"

There is nothing about authoritarianism, and there is nothing hidden about that either.

Now whether the debt collection process is badly done, is another question.

 

[The exile]

No one has answered the 5 questions I posed. Surely predatory behaviour from rail companies should be frowned upon? I’ll also ask this on a French rail forum, I expect them to be vehemently against authoritarianism.

1. Auto-renewal on a subscription basis is perfectly normal in Germany (and made clear in the t’s and cs
2 see my previous reply - they may well have done so
3 A BC is like a UK railcard in that entitles you to a discount. It doesn’t have to be swiped - merely visually checked so can’t be blocked once issued.
4. If you sign a German contract it’s your responsibility to be aware of German contract law and be aware that cultures and expectations differ. German law is much more codified than ours and available to all (albeit not recommended bed time reading) Sorry - but that’s the way it is.
5. Presumably purchased online!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the gym would try to take payment and only fine you if payment fails. Heck the gym would even try to take payment more than once because they understand life happens and someone may not have enough balance now, but tomorrow or a week later their balance would be enough after payday etc.

How many times do I have to say that the German national railway company never tried to charge the railcard fee to my friend’s bank account. If they did it would have gone through and he wouldn’t have this problem.

Was the contract for it to be ueberwiesen (transferred) manually? This is very common in Germany.

Again, the person should have read and complied to the terms and conditions of the contract they signed. If you would like us to check the contract, please post it in full - enough people here can read German to get an idea.

 

[railgunn]

1. Auto-renewal on a subscription basis is perfectly normal in Germany (and made clear in the t’s and cs
2 see my previous reply - they may well have done so
3 A BC is like a UK railcard in that entitles you to a discount. It doesn’t have to be swiped - merely visually checked so can’t be blocked once issued.
4. If you sign a German contract it’s your responsibility to be aware of German contract law and be aware that cultures and expectations differ. German law is much more codified than ours and available to all (albeit not recommended bed time reading) Sorry - but that’s the way it is.
5. Presumably purchased online!

Thanks for answering.
2. I asked him and he’s 100% sure they never deducted the rail card renewal fee from his bank
3. By codified, do you mean it’s just something they expect someone to know, even if that person is not familiar with german culture?

 

[Bletchleyite]

2. I asked him and he’s 100% sure they never deducted the rail card renewal fee from his bank

That doesn't mean they didn't attempt it, or that the contract didn't require him to transfer it manually.

3. By codified, do you mean it’s just something they expect someone to know, even if that person is not familiar with german culture?

It would state it in the contract. If you are able to obtain the full contract and post it here we can confirm or deny this.

 

[railgunn]

Was the contract for it to be ueberwiesen (transferred) manually? This is very common in Germany.

Again, the person should have read and complied to the terms and conditions of the contract they signed. If you would like us to check the contract, please post it in full - enough people here can read German to get an idea.

Why is it that “enough people here can read German”, I thought this is what our grandparents fought against? I’m joking, couldn’t help myself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it that “enough people here can read German”, I thought this is what our grandparents fought against? I’m joking, couldn’t help myself.

I know for a fact that there are several German speakers on here including myself, that's all.

 

[The exile]

Thanks for answering.
2. I asked him and he’s 100% sure they never deducted the rail card renewal fee from his bank
3. By codified, do you mean it’s just something they expect someone to know, even if that person is not familiar with german culture?

2. Think there’s a misunderstanding. If the charge request failed before it reached “account level” at your friend’s bank then the charging bank would know (DB) but your friend wouldn’t
3. All written down and available in a couple of very boring tomes available in every bookshop. As to the second half of your question - frankly, yes. Ignorance of the law is no defence and in a foreign jurisdiction you’ll often find that what’s perfectly normal (here) isn’t (there)

 

[railgunn]

I think they expected my friend to make the renewal payment. It seems like a trap to me… Here’s your rail card . A year later… we have not received a payment for a new railcard so we will start debt collection and quadruple the “debt” through interest.

Just don’t have automatic renewal, but if you do, be the ones to take payment from the railcard holder.

What if a rail card holder is in a coma, are you trying to tell me it’s ethical for a rail company to start debt collection and slap on huge interest rates because the comatose patient was not able to pay for another year through no fault of his on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they expected my friend to make the renewal payment. It seems like a trap to me… Here’s your rail card . A year later… we have not received a payment for a new railcard so we will start debt collection and quadruple the “debt” through interest.

Just don’t have automatic renewal, but if you do, be the ones to take payment from the railcard holder.

This is how things often work in Germany due to their approach to banking. Again, did your friend actually read the contract they were signing? It seems clear they did not and are being penalised as a result of their (in)action.

What if a rail card holder is in a coma, are you trying to tell me it’s ethical for a rail company to start debt collection and slap on huge interest rates because the comatose patient was not able to pay for another year through no fault of his on?

I hear the faint squeak of the RailUK Standard Minority being wheeled out.