Pre-Nationisation coaching stock in blue and grey.

[6Gman]

The cynic in me says that the retention of older catering vehicles was to encourage passengers to return to their more comfortable seats, and make space for more buffet customers.

They probably rode better than the Mk Is which, on B1 bogies, had a reputation for poor performance.

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve seen preserved Stanier vehicles with NSE moquette, suggesting they ran peak extras into the 1980s.

That appears to simply be a case of NSE moquette being made available to preserved railways. The coaches won't have had that moquette in service.

 

[hexagon789]

The incorrect use of 'R' in the codes has always bugged me. In a hotel, the door marked 'Restaurant' leads to where you eat, not the kitchen!

In the railway world though, a Restaurant Car would usually have a kitchen, a vehicle purely for seating to consume meals would be a dining car.

Similarly, as a building, a Restaurant has a kitchen and a dining area. A hotel might for example have a separate kitchen and a dining room not adjacent, while a restaurant is typically both those elements together - the kitchen adjoins the dining area.

The 'R' also has the purpose of designating certain code letters as pertaining to catering not ordinary seating - 'B' for 'Buffet' can also be 'Brake' 'K' for 'Kitchen' can also be 'Corridor'.

 

[Rescars]

2. Said triples were over-provision on many routes (the SR moved its sole car from the Royal Wessex to a weekend-only Ilfracombe trip replacing the Devon Belle) though I think they survived in charter sets - I recall seeing RKs in an Ascot race special at Clapham Yard around 1980 (unless they were the version with a tiny buffet counter?)

You are quite correct about seeing 80000s on Ascot specials in Clapham Yard. There were two in each set, serving into two SOs on each side, so 448 dining passengers in total. The West Midlands working allowed just 90 minutes to serve a three course lunch and get the money in for drinks between the last pick-up at Leamington and arrival at Ascot. Delays with the pilotman at Reading were welcome! Things were rather more relaxed on the back trip, especially if members of the party had picked profitable winners and were travelling as far as New Street or Wolverhampton..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

In the railway world though, a Restaurant Car would usually have a kitchen, a vehicle purely for seating to consume meals would be a dining car.

Similarly, as a building, a Restaurant has a kitchen and a dining area. A hotel might for example have a separate kitchen and a dining room not adjacent, while a restaurant is typically both those elements together - the kitchen adjoins the dining area.

The 'R' also has the purpose of designating certain code letters as pertaining to catering not ordinary seating - 'B' for 'Buffet' can also be 'Brake' 'K' for 'Kitchen' can also be 'Corridor'.

Back in the day, the catering grades had their own jargon. Buffets were in "cars", cooking sometimes took place in "vans", and passengers ate in "saloons", whilst occasional at seat service of teas and coffees elsewhere took place "down the alley"!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

The cynic in me says that the retention of older catering vehicles was to encourage passengers to return to their more comfortable seats, and make space for more buffet customers.

Fluid seating allowed for those niceties of a bygone age, such as first and second sittings for lunch, followed by separate sittings of afternoon tea, high tea and dinner. All silver service. After this sort of feasting, getting to journey's end was a bit of a let-down. Today's stylish offering of coffee in a disposable cup with a pastry in a paper bag is referred to by the experts as progress!

 

[Merle Haggard]

They probably rode better than the Mk Is which, on B1 bogies, had a reputation for poor performance.

Yes indeed, I remember West Coast expresses at Roade where the 12 wheel LMS kitchen diner rode rock steady at speed, a bit of a contrast to the BR1 bogied stock in the rest of the train. Same thing with the 12 wheel LMS design sleepers.
I've read somewhere that the L.M.S.. 6 wheel bogies (even the B.R. built sleepers) all had Mansell wheels, another factor.

In the railway world though, a Restaurant Car would usually have a kitchen, a vehicle purely for seating to consume meals would be a dining car.

/snip

Those of a certain age may remember the Kitmaster kits for B.R. Standard coaches. The last one to be produced was a 'Restaurant Car'.They had possibly been misled; the prototype of the coach in question was - disappointingly to me - just an FO with loose seats and obviously no catering. However, it was an RFO in B.R. codes, and had 'RESTAURANT' painted on the side.

//

There's a whole minefield of what was painted (or not!) on the side if catering vehicles ,including from memory the random inclusion of the suffix 'CAR'...

//

Back on the subject of B&G; there definitely was one pre-group coach painted in that livery, though it's a bit of a cheat. It was the L.M.R. Cinema Coach converted from an L.N.W.R. dining car (it's now been restored at Quaton Road) . I have a hazy recollection that the generator car was ex an S.R. constituent company 4 or 6 wheeler similarly repainted although something built much later was subsequently substituted

 

[Magdalia]

There were also the conversions of pre-nat stock to the early form of buffet cars which were known as 'caf-cars' - I think that they had 'Cafeteria' branding - which might have obviated building standard RMBs.

My impression is that CafCars were a London Midland Region thing. I have seen references to them being in the consists of excursion trains coming onto the Eastern Region from the London Midland Region. But I don't know what sort of vehicles they were, whether any of them survived the post Beeching cull of excursion stock, and whether any made it into blue and grey.

Whatever the benefits of the trapezoidal tables in Mark 2s may have been regarding access, fitting four place settings on them was challenging and serving soup decided perilous. Thus the use of second class Mark 2s for dining was unusual.

On the Eastern Region that's not correct. The original build of MarkIIs for the ECML included 28 SOs with 2-1 seating numbered 5229-5256. These were used for dining, but were cascaded off the ECML when replaced by air braked then aircon stock.

Well into the 1980s the Liverpool Street-Kings Lynn trains still had restaurant service and usually had a MarkII SO marshalled next to the catering car, which was usually an RB. I also remember dining in a MarkII SO on the Highland Main Line when that still had trains with restaurant service.

To get us back on topic, I suspect that, in the 1970s, MarkII SOs may have been marshalled next to Gresley or Thompson blue and grey buffet cars on Parkeston Quay boat trains, including the North Country Continental. However, another option for this was blue and grey ex Pullman cars.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thanks to @Merle Haggard & @Beebman for the GWR Hawksworths. Also to @Cowley for pointing out his previous thread with several pictures from various sources. Several interesting posts by others too,cheers to you all.

 

[Merle Haggard]

My impression is that CafCars were a London Midland Region thing. I have seen references to them being in the consists of excursion trains coming onto the Eastern Region from the London Midland Region. But I don't know what sort of vehicles they were, whether any of them survived the post Beeching cull of excursion stock, and whether any made it into blue and grey.

/ snip

I vaguely remember the CafCars but at the time I regarded the price of a drink in one as extortionate by repute so avoided them
Looking in the Jenkinson & Essery L.M.S. Coaches books, they seem to have been converted from a variety of types presumably made obsolete by design rather than wear - 50' all Kitchen cars, 12 wheel diners and third class sleeping cars (the ones with 4 berths per compartment and an outside door....) that had later been used in WW2 Ambulance Trains. I wouldn't think that the Design Panel was involved in their external appearance .
Surprisingly the last weren't condemned until P11/65 but possibly were sitting around in sidings for a long time before that, and just the sort of stock Beeching thought a burden.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

Thanks to @Merle Haggard & @Beebman for the GWR Hawksworths. Also to @Cowley for pointing out his previous thread with several pictures from various sources. Several interesting posts by others too,cheers to you all.

Cheers; I have an idea that I saw a Hawksworth BG in B&G, too. I'll have to look through the 'Coach Notes' of Railway Observers of the time, the reports are not systemic or official, just members' reports, though.

 

[matchmaker]

Yes indeed, I remember West Coast expresses at Roade where the 12 wheel LMS kitchen diner rode rock steady at speed, a bit of a contrast to the BR1 bogied stock in the rest of the train. Same thing with the 12 wheel LMS design sleepers.
I've read somewhere that the L.M.S.. 6 wheel bogies (even the B.R. built sleepers) all had Mansell wheels, another factor.



Those of a certain age may remember the Kitmaster kits for B.R. Standard coaches. The last one to be produced was a 'Restaurant Car'.They had possibly been misled; the prototype of the coach in question was - disappointingly to me - just an FO with loose seats and obviously no catering. However, it was an RFO in B.R. codes, and had 'RESTAURANT' painted on the side.

//

There's a whole minefield of what was painted (or not!) on the side if catering vehicles ,including from memory the random inclusion of the suffix 'CAR'...

//built)

Back on the subject of B&G; there definitely was one pre-group coach painted in that livery, though it's a bit of a cheat. It was the L.M.R. Cinema Coach converted from an L.N.W.R. dining car (it's now been restored at Quaton Road) . I have a hazy recollection that the generator car was ex an S.R. constituent company 4 or 6 wheeler similarly repainted although something built much later was subsequently substituted

The 12 wheel sleepers had Mansell wheels. They were also fitted with ETH. The 8 wheel LMS design (but BR built) second class sleepers lasted into blue and grey. I remember seeing a rake in Aberdeen early 1970s. I think they were the longest lasting LMS design passenger carrying stock, lasting until the mid 1970s.

 

[Taunton]

If I recall correctly there was a Western Region diktat at the end of 1962 about no passenger vehicles over 30 years old, which cleared out not only vehicles before 1932 but all pre-grouping ones, of which there were still quite a number.

Others will know more of the details, but anecdotally, catering vehicles must be a lot more expensive to build than standard coaches, seeing they house commercial grade kitchens and service areas with all the associated complexities of drinking water plumbing, wiring, cooking fuel, etc.

A key issue is the number of vehicles is much less than standard seated ones, so they have to bear all the design costs over a few examples, plus all the additional costs of procurement of all the specialised equipment. The production staff would be less familiar with assembly as well. It's the same with car manufacture, where upmarket sports saloons are so much more expensive in significant part because all the design and tooling costs are spread over far less examples than mass market saloons.

There's a (poor quality) colour photo of a Hawksworth SK in blue/grey at the following link:

https://media-eu.invisioncic.com/y3...86.jpeg.80732488bfe6f146fdca0cd9c7fb31ac.jpeg

Thank you. I've never seen even a picture of Hawksworth stock in blue/grey before.

I also travelled in a Hawksworth design (but B.R. - built) coach in B&G from New Street to Bristol in the summer of 1968 or 9 - it was on the rear of the train, so I'm not sure that it was working a full NE - SW diagram.

It was normal in the 1960s for WR expresses in summer to have an additional Hawksworth vehicle, most commonly an SK, added on the rear as strengthening. At some stations this took the train length beyond the station platform, so they were also frequently provided for booked parties not travelling to those shorter platform stations. There were also spares of these at various key points ready to be attached if suddenly required - an express leaving Exeter with standing passengers would have a message passed to Taunton, where the west end pilot would be ready to attach one to the rear. It might go all the way to Newcastle, and take several days to be returned.

The Hawksworth stock was built up until 1951, and production may have even overlapped the first Mk1s that Swindon built, using up the materials in stock. Steel was still in short supply in 1951 and you didn't waste it.

 

[norbitonflyer]

These were 1923 standard stock, of the London Underground but nothing to do with BR until purchased for IOW electrification, so nothing to do with the grouping either. They were however 10 years pre-LPTB. Were they in fact built by the private UERL?

Most standard stock was pre 1933 and therefore built for (but not necessarily by) UERL. There were 645 motor coaches, 270 control trailers, and 551 trailers. Only the last 26 motor coaches, 3689-3721, (and none of tghe trialkers or control trailers) were built in LT days, in 1934. (These were built to allow some three car sets to become four car - the cab in the control trailer becoming redundant).
Of the nineteen motor coaches that went to the IoW, five were from that batch:
3696 (S10S)
3702 (S4S)
3703 (S1S)
3705 (S11S)
3706 (S2S)

The oldest cars were the trailers, all from the 1923 batch
7275 (S43S)
7279 (S47S)
7280 (S42S)
7281 (S44S)
7282 (S93S)
7283 (S46S)
7285 (S92S)
7286 (S41S)
7287 (S94S)
7290 (S96S)
7292 (S95S)
7293 (S45S)
7296 (S49S)
7298 (S48S)

 

[Taunton]

Well into the 1980s the Liverpool Street-Kings Lynn trains still had restaurant service

I recall reading that the Cambridge University Railway Society used to have their December meeting and Christmas lunch in this restaurant car, when it was laying over between morning and evening trips in Thornton Fields sidings, Stratford.

Each to their own, I suppose ...

 

[delt1c]

The 313s and I think the 312s were blue and grey from new, circa 1975.

Memory is hazy, but have recolections that 312's for LM were all blue but i could be wrong

 

[Magdalia]

I recall reading that the Cambridge University Railway Society used to have their December meeting and Christmas lunch in this restaurant car, when it was laying over between morning and evening trips in Thornton Fields sidings, Stratford.

Each to their own, I suppose ...

Go back to the last days of steam and it was more extravagant than that. A lot of the members of the Cambridge University Railway Club (not society!) went on to senior positions on the railway and strings could be pulled.

The Club annual dinner was usually in February on a Saturday evening train from London to Cambridge, and until 1963 with steam traction. In order to make the journey long enough for a proper dinner (presumably at least 3 courses and time to pass the port) the restaurant car would be shunted into a siding part of the way at Bishops Stortford or Hitchin.

In the years where I have identified the restaurant car it was an ex LNER vehicle, but this is before blue and grey!

The participants would have dressed for dinner. My understanding is that they were then accommodated for the night at their old college and went home next day.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 'Golden Arrow' Pullman cars (although privately built 1951-2) ended their days in 1972 in blue and grey. For a period, some cars were in the 'reversed' blue and grey.

So did the 1933-vintage Brighton Belle

 

[Merle Haggard]

If I recall correctly there was a Western Region diktat at the end of 1962 about no passenger vehicles over 30 years old, which cleared out not only vehicles before 1932 but all pre-grouping ones, of which there were still quite a number.


/snip

I suggest that this may have been part of a bigger scheme. The B.T.C. was split up at the end of 1962 and the B.R.B. formed with effect from 1.1.63. My understanding is that the new Board didn't want to take onto its books assets that were redundant but still had capital value - and with passenger service cuts and the continuing loss of freight (particularly general merchandise) traffic there was a lot of locos. and stock in that category. Certainly, there were massive withdrawals of locos in the later months of 1962 and I think that all the W.R. 'Kings' were hastily withdrawn by 31.12.62.

Thanks for the info' about use of Hawksworths for ad-hoc strengthening.

 

[30907]

From memory there were two all-kitchen (80022 &24???) cars in the 'West Midland Executive' set as late as 1970-71 - presumably until it stopped running. There was also one or maybe two in the '15 Guinea Special'

The ones with the tiny buffet counter had no seats, but a curious circular table around a thick vertical column (the 'Totem Pole') and these were the KB - 1500s.

Thanks for clarifying - a look at pictures online confirms my memory that the cars I saw were RKs (the originals, not the modern conversions).
And thanks to Rescars in #34 for the detail of the workings.

 

[Mr. SW]

Just remembered: Several inspection saloons received B/G. I took a photo of a GWR design one on the Severn Valley Railway in the late 70s. It was stored on the viaduct south of Bewdley Station, but i did not record the number.

 

[Taunton]

A lot of the members of the Cambridge University Railway Club (not society!) went on to senior positions on the railway and strings could be pulled.

The Club annual dinner was usually in February on a Saturday evening train from London to Cambridge, and until 1963 with steam traction. In order to make the journey long enough for a proper dinner (presumably at least 3 courses and time to pass the port) the restaurant car would be shunted into a siding part of the way at Bishops Stortford or Hitchin.

In the years where I have identified the restaurant car it was an ex LNER vehicle, but this is before blue and grey!

The participants would have dressed for dinner. My understanding is that they were then accommodated for the night at their old college and went home next day.

I do apologise to any Old Blues for the effrontery of calling their prestigious Club a mere society. I suppose they had however been insulted previously, when in charge of management there was Gerry Fiennes, alas an Oxford Man, who furthermore had been around back in 1948 when the BR Regional colours were decided, whereupon the Eastern got ... dark blue.

Only 50% off topic, for doesn't concern grey, but does blue!

 

[Magdalia]

Certainly, there were massive withdrawals of locos in the later months of 1962 and I think that all the W.R. 'Kings' were hastily withdrawn by 31.12.62.

The timing of the withdrawal of the Kings was due to the arrival of the Westerns. In particular the Paddington-Wolverhampton service switched from Kings to Westerns in autumn 1962.

 

[Friary Yard]

I remember travelling in an LMS or LMS design Sleeper on the 00.55 Paddington to Penzance sometime between 1973 and 1975.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I suppose they had however been insulted previously, when in charge of management there was Gerry Fiennes, alas an Oxford Man, who furthermore had been around back in 1948 when the BR Regional colours were decided, whereupon the Eastern got ... dark blue.

Goes back furtherb than that - the Great Eastern Railway painted its locomotives in the same colour.

Most of the colours harked back to one of the pre-grouping companies - Midland/LMS Crimson, Caledonian blue, LSWR/LCDR/SR green, GWR chocolate, GER blue, but was there any connection between the NER and orange? Ot was it an approximation to the varnished (not painted) wood used by the LNER?

 

[Beebman]

Most of the colours harked back to one of the pre-grouping companies - Midland/LMS Crimson, Caledonian blue, LSWR/LCDR/SR green, GWR chocolate, GER blue, but was there any connection between the NER and orange? Ot was it an approximation to the varnished (not painted) wood used by the LNER?

According to the BR Totem book by Brennand and Furness, the LNER used orange enamel signs at a few stations in the north east and on p19 of the book there's a photo of an example from Durham. However after all the other main colours had been used for the other regions there wasn't much choice left anyway.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Did any SR loco hauled stock (Bullied/Maunsell etc) ever receive blue/grey?

 

[Gloster]

Did any SR loco hauled stock (Bullied/Maunsell etc) ever receive blue/grey?

No Bulleid ones, but the Maunsell postal sorting and stowage vehicles, as well as, I think, a couple of saloons used for pilgrimage traffic did.

 

[matchmaker]

No Bulleid ones, but the Maunsell postal sorting and stowage vehicles, as well as, I think, a couple of saloons used for pilgrimage traffic did.

From Hugh Longworths "Pre-nationalisation coaching stock" it doesn't look like any Bulleid passenger coaches lasted after the end of 1968.

 

[Merle Haggard]

From Hugh Longworths "Pre-nationalisation coaching stock" it doesn't look like any Bulleid passenger coaches lasted after the end of 1968.

When the Southern converted loco hauled Mk1s to the VEP/TC sets sequences of running numbers were converted (presumably to get absolutely-identical batches). Many of the target coaches were allocated to other Regions, and conversely the ones already on the S.R. weren't in the series, so there was a lot of inter-regional swaps. It seems that the Southern didn't have enough Mk 1s to transfer, so that some Bulleids were also transferred. They were repainted maroon, possibly before transfer. As they weren't repainted maroon until transferred it's possible that this was after the change to B&G but possibly dons as not to draw attention to them.
As a result, in the July of 1968 I rode on SC14xxS (poss 1453) in maroon from Glasgow to Fort William, hauled by an NBL Type 2 (I was despondent that I had narrowly missed the named K2s, though). I think I saw one on the East Coast, too. Presumably they were really stop-gaps, but a bit more physical than the usual 'paper transfers'.
\
About the same time, I saw a green Mk2 FO in a Deltic-hauled train at Newcastle presumably after transfer as surplus by the S.R. and this would have been built after the changeover, but possibly in the old livery to avoid a clash with the rest of the S.R. fleet.

I recollect vaguely that T.P.O. stock also received B&G - the Maunsell one on the Nene Valley still has traces under the preservation green. I dimly remember some of the M30nnnM series being in B&G but some were built comparatively long after Nationalisation.

 

[D6130]

VEP/TC

REP/TC

About the same time, I saw a green Mk2 FO in a Deltic-hauled train at Newcastle presumably after transfer as surplus by the S.R. and this would have been built after the changeover, but possibly in the old livery to avoid a clash with the rest of the S.R. fleet

That would almost certainly have been an FK. IIRC, no Mark 2 FOs were built until the Mark 2c stock in about 1970. All the Southern Region's FOs were Mark 1s.

 

[Merle Haggard]

REP/TC

That would almost certainly have been an FK. IIRC, no Mark 2 FOs were built until the Mark 2c stock in about 1970. All the Southern Region's FOs were Mark 1s.

Sorry you're right, and I did mean FK - I'm old I can almost remember the number, 13x52 possibly

 

[AdamWW]

• The Vale of Rheidol stock built by the GWR at Swindon in the 1920s and 1930s. They carried Blue and Grey before getting Chocolate and Cream in the mid-1980s (possibly linked with GWR 150 celebrations?).

I thought they were just plain Blue, rather than Blue and Grey.

The 800xx vehicles were RK (Kitchen Car) whereas the 15xx vehicles were RKB (Kitchen Buffet). It was the presence of the Buffet and that pole with space to rest drinks that probably saw the latter numbered in the passenger carrying series because people could consume their refreshments in the vehicle, so technically making them passenger carrying!

R seems to have been used to indicate catering vehicles rather than Restaurant per say, and several never had Restaurant in their name - RK (Kitchen Car), RKB (Kitchen Buffet), RG (Griddle) and RMB (Miniature Buffet).

Just as B was used for anything with a Brake. C for Catering might have made more sense but maybe someone thought it would have been confusing because you had C for Composite (Corridor stock already used K, I presume for a similar reason).

I've come to the conclusion that there's not much point in trying to find too much of a logical pattern to the carriage codes because it doesn't work.