Pre-HS1 Southeastern services

[CMS]

Hi there,

Does anyone have a list of pre-HS1 (May-Dec 2009) Southeastern service frequencies and stopping patterns? Wikipedia isn't much help! I'm just trying to work out the actual gains/losses Kent has made since the introduction of HS services and slowing down of some Mainline routes.

Are there any services that ought to be reinstated?

Thanks.

 

[DeeGee]

Tell you what, slightly related. I tried at three different stations (Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International and Strood) to get a pocket timetable for services from Strood to London which weren't on Highspeed (as I wanted to travel to Blackheath and Abbey Wood), and none of the stations had any. It's as if they want to force you on to Highspeed and enjoy the lovely supplements.

 

[user15681]

Accessing a list would be tricky, but there's probably one in an archive somewhere. If you email Southeastern directly, they may be able to send some old timetables that show the service frequencies and stopping patterns, it's worth a shot. You can discard Metro services really, as they saw no change, although some saw slight improvement, so this is only considering Mainline. Unfortunately I can't remember the entire timetables pre-HS1 (it's been 5 years now), but what I can remember...

Pre-2009 Chatham main line:
Victoria to Ramsgate/Dover Priory (splitting at Faversham) - 2tph
- calling at Bromley South, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham. Split to Ramsgate train and Dover train. For Ramsgate, 1tph would do all stations to Ramsgate, whilst 1tph would do Whitstable, Herne Bay, Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate (I think). For Dover, 1tph would do all stations to Dover Priory, whilst 1tph would do Canterbury East and Dover Priory.
Victoria to Faversham - 2tph
- calling at Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Newington, Sittingbourne, Teynham and Faversham.

Current Chatham main line (changes in Bold):
Victoria to Ramsgate/Dover Priory (splitting at Faversham) - 2tph
- calling at Bromley South, Longfield, Meopham, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Newington (1tph), Sittingbourne, Teynham (1pth), Faversham. Split to Ramsgate train and Dover train. For Ramsgate, 1tph would do all stations to Ramsgate, whilst 1tph would do Whitstable, Herne Bay, Birchington on Sea, Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate (I think). For Dover, 1tph would do all stations to Dover Priory, whilst 1tph would do Canterbury East and Dover Priory.
Victoria to Gillingham - 1tph
- calling at Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham.
St Pancras International to Faversham - 2tph
- calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Gravesend, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne and Faversham.

It's worth noting though that December 2014 timetable change will be a big change and there will be big alterations to that mentioned above. The Victoria to Ramsgate/Dover Priory will no longer run as a combined service. Instead, 1tph will run to Ramsgate and 1tph will run to Dover Priory. To replace the lost services, the 1tph Victoria to Gillingham will be extended to Dover Prior and the St Pancras International to Faversham will be extended to Ramsgate as part of a circuit High Speed service.

Someone else should be able to provide more detail about the services pre-High Speed from Charing Cross to Maidstone East, Ashford, Margate, Rasmgate and Dover via the SEML.

 

[swt_passenger]

You might want to try the DfT's public register of franchise agreements available here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/london-and-south-eastern-railway-limited

Service level commitments 1 and 2 on that page reflect the pre and post HS1 situation, AFAICT from a quick browse. They're not an easy read, but all the info should be in the two specs.

If you use the search term 'integrated Kent franchise' in DfT's search box you should also bring up all the stakeholder briefings and similar stuff.

 

[telstarbox]

IIRC there was a period before 2009 when there were three trains per hour off-peak between London, Tonbridge and Ashford (now reduced to two).

Of the three at least one continued beyond Ashford to Canterbury West (or Ramsgate) and at least one continued to Dover Priory (or Ramsgate).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From memory ,the line via Maidstone East was:
1tph Victoria-Maidstone East all stations
1tph Victoria-Ashford semi-fast to Maidstone East, all stations beyond
1tph Victoria-Canterbury West semi-fast to Ashford, all stations beyond

Now down to:
1tph Victoria-Ashford semi-fast
1tph Victoria-Ashford all stations

 

[telstarbox]

There were also Ashford - Maidstone East - Cannon Street services until 2009?

 

[higthomas]

Try https://archive.org/web/web.php
Can sometimes be used to download old PDF timetables if you can work out the addresses.

 

[bicbasher]

High Brooms and Tunbridge Wells were only served by 2tph pre HS1 by the Hastings semi-fast and stopper services off-peak.

 

[user15681]

Right, I've managed to source the timetables for Mainline services as follows from December 2008 to March 2009:

London to Paddock Wood, Staplehurst, Ashford International, Canterbury West, Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate and Margate.
London to Maidstone East, Ashford International and Canterbury West
London to Ashford International, Canterbury and Dover.
London to Chatham, Gillingham, Sittingbourne, Sheerness-on-Sea, Faversham, Canterbury East, Dover, Margate and Ramsgate.

I'll PM you now with regards to sending them to you. If anyone else would like them (either now or anyone in future looking back on this thread) then drop me a message.

 

[notadriver]

I think they should have one hourly semi-fast service from Victoria to Ramsgate (complete). Bromley South, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham,Sittingbourne, Faversham then all stations.

The stopper to Gillingham should do all stations to Dover and the hourly Dover retains Meopham and Longfield, also newington and Teynham and after Faversham, just Canterbury East and Dover priory.

Charing cross to Dover priory could remain as it is. But maybe the Charing Cross to ramsgate should be Waterloo East, London bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Paddock Wood, Staplehurst, Ashford (complete), Canterbury West then all stations to Ramsgate.

Just as an aside would people like to see Javelin trains on services to Charing cross or Victoria bearing in mind they would struggle to keep present main line timings if in multiple?

 

[telstarbox]

Just as an aside would people like to see Javelin trains on services to Charing cross or Victoria bearing in mind they would struggle to keep present main line timings if in multiple?

No - I think the Class 375 units are durable and comfortable stock for the Southeastern mainline services. The same can't be said for the rather cheap Class 465/466 units though.

Also, as the Class 375 units are 4-car each, it's easier to operate shorter trains or split/join as required. Some stations in Kent only have 8-car platforms so you couldn't run a multiple Javelin service.

 

[Stats]

It times like this when The Wayback Machine is useful

http://web.archive.org/web/20090215001941/http://southeasternrailway.co.uk/timetables.php

 

[Bushy]

I have timetables for services via Ashford for Dec 2008 to May 2009 in pdf and the previous two periods in Cerience Repligo rgo format. If these are any good to you, pm me; I will e-mail the pdfs and try to find the software to open the rgos.

Regards

Bushy

ps

I have managed to install a Repligo Viewer so can provide

• London to Maidstone East, Ashford International and Canterbury West
• London to Paddock Wood, Staplehurst, Ashford International, Canterbury West,Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate and Margate
• London to Ashford International, Canterbury and Dover

for

• December 2007 to May 2008
• May 2008 to December 2008
• December 2008 to May 2009

Regards

Bushy