Pre court settlement letter

[monty22]

Hi my son has just received a letter saying he owes £2k ? Pre court settlement GWR
He was found to have an invalid railcard in April 2024 . And fined on the spot and purchased a new card .
However they have investigated and say he used it multiple times from Jan 6th 2024 up until that date . My concern is we didn’t know it had expired and had been checked multiple times beforehand . He purchased it in September 2023 . For 1 year . However turned 18 on the 3rd Jan 2024 this made the card invalid . He received no notification of this .
Is ignorance any kind of excuse to appeal? Does seem very harsh .

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome.

Could you show us the letter please? It's always helpful for the experts to see correspondence. Be sure to cover up your son's name, address and any reference numbers.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You can try appealing to GWR but the railcard website states on the front page:

• The 16-17 Saver is valid for one year or until your 18th birthday, whichever comes first and is not available to purchase at stations

So it might sound harsh but not knowing was completely your son's fault but there is no harm in at least contacting GWR.

 

[monty22]

Trying to attach

 

[Snow1964]

The 16-17 railcard is valid for one year, or until 18th birthday, whichever comes first.

It is very unfortunate they are dated to expire at one year, even if your birthday date is on the application form. Sort of misleading unless you plough through all terms and conditions.

If the pass was previously accepted on the train, then there is a theoretical argument that permission to travel with it had been granted by a servant of the railway, so retrospectively including that journey is wrong. Certainly unfair, but not sure it would hold legally.

 

[monty22]

Hi, welcome.

Could you show us the letter please? It's always helpful for the experts to see correspondence. Be sure to cover up your son's name, address and any reference numbers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Trying to attach

What I would be doing urgently is going through the online records of wherever your son buys his tickets from and calculating how many journeys he may have taken with the railcard discount applied but after he was no longer entitled to use it / or it had expired. I would then see if replacement tickets for those travels comes to approx the sum they are asking for.

Unfortunately the railway usually defaults to considering a ticket bought with a railcard discount when the Railcard was not valid as being a totally invalid ticket and they seek a replacement (with nothing given for the sum that was paid) - they usually use the punitive Anytime Single price to calculate these fares. However, if you engage with them they may be prepared to consider only charging the balance if you can persuade them this was all a genuine oversight, not deliberate fare evasion. But you are 'at their mercy' so to speak. Having said that, given your son's age they may be open to being sympathetic to some extent.

So your son could write back to them, apologise for what has happened and see if they might be open to being persuaded to do that. If you do want to do that I would strongly suggest you post a draft of what you want to send them here so people can help you get it as good as it can be before you send it to GWR.

You can also ask them to send you a list of the tickets / occasions where they think this has happened so that you can check against your own records. They are usually prepared to do this. The key is is to engage with them in a constructive manner, but of course you will need to be prepared that it is very likely that a not insignificant sum of money is owed, but you should check this.

For example an Oxford to Southampton Anytime Single is £53.20 (for one way) - so you can see how it adds up but £2k of fares must represent a lot of travel. Do you / your son think that is accurate / realistic?

Hope this helps - post any questions you want to here and people will be able to answer them for you, and give you the best advice they can.

 

[John R]

If it helps, an easy way to determine the Anytime Single fare for each journey is to use the following website. Make sure you scroll down until you get to Standard Class fares in each case, as First Class fares are listed first.

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

 

[Titfield]

What expiry date does the railcard show? Is this a physical or digital card?

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately the railway usually defaults to considering a ticket bought with a railcard discount when the Railcard was not valid as being a totally invalid ticket and they seek a replacement (with nothing given for the sum that was paid) - they usually use the punitive Anytime Single price to calculate these fares.

This is not a case of "usually default" as it is set out in the terms and conditions.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is not a case of "usually default" as it is set out in the terms and conditions.

Thanks. Tho iirc we do see cases where they agree to accept a payment of the difference. But your point is well made and should help the op know how this works.

 

[monty22]

What I would be doing urgently is going through the online records of wherever your son buys his tickets from and calculating how many journeys he may have taken with the railcard discount applied but after he was no longer entitled to use it / or it had expired. I would then see if replacement tickets for those travels comes to approx the sum they are asking for.

Unfortunately the railway usually defaults to considering a ticket bought with a railcard discount when the Railcard was not valid as being a totally invalid ticket and they seek a replacement (with nothing given for the sum that was paid) - they usually use the punitive Anytime Single price to calculate these fares. However, if you engage with them they may be prepared to consider only charging the balance if you can persuade them this was all a genuine oversight, not deliberate fare evasion. But you are 'at their mercy' so to speak. Having said that, given your son's age they may be open to being sympathetic to some extent.

So your son could write back to them, apologise for what has happened and see if they might be open to being persuaded to do that. If you do want to do that I would strongly suggest you post a draft of what you want to send them here so people can help you get it as good as it can be before you send it to GWR.

You can also ask them to send you a list of the tickets / occasions where they think this has happened so that you can check against your own records. They are usually prepared to do this. The key is is to engage with them in a constructive manner, but of course you will need to be prepared that it is very likely that a not insignificant sum of money is owed, but you should check this.

For example an Oxford to Southampton Anytime Single is £53.20 (for one way) - so you can see how it adds up but £2k of fares must represent a lot of travel. Do you / your son think that is accurate / realistic?

Hope this helps - post any questions you want to here and people will be able to answer them for you, and give you the best advice they can.

Thank you - I guess it’s about right he went twice a week so that’s approx £200 for 10 weeks… I’ll have a think about letter to them and check his travel records

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2025 ==

What expiry date does the railcard show? Is this a physical or digital card?

Was a digital - now can’t access it as it only shows the new one purchased in April 2024 and not the September 2023 card

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you - I guess it’s about right he went twice a week so that’s approx £200 for 10 weeks… I’ll have a think about letter to them and check his travel records

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2025 ==


Was a digital - now can’t access it as it only shows the new one purchased in April 2024 and not the September 2023 card

I would definitely be writing to them in apologetic terms. It won’t increase the sum they are asking for by doing so but may help reduce it.

Also have a read of the pdf version of the GWR revenue protection policy on their website.

 

[Cuthbert]

Was a digital - now can’t access it as it only shows the new one purchased in April 2024 and not the September 2023 card

You might be able to find that info on a receipt you might have gotten via email if you purchase it?