Prams on trains

[deltic1989]

Onthe occasion I discribe the guard made a perfectly reasonable request of me, (which considering it was a sunny day and the train was off to skegness I was ready for anyway) to fold down my daughters pushchair/pram/travel system (delete as appropriate). that to me was a very easy thing to comply with as the way this thing is designed the a car seat slots and locks into the top, so just take the car seat out and fold the frame baby is not disturbed in the whole process true I had to stand in the vestibule with the frame,but I wasnt too fussed about that I paid my fare to ride on the train not for a seat. What annoyed me was not only this womans refusal to comply with a reasonable request but the way she did it seemingly intent on causing a scene. I know that taking children on a long journey can be stressful but as said being stressed is no excuse to use the kind of language she used in front of children. It may seem that I'm also having a rant about parenting standards dropping and maybe I am, for my part I would never use foul language in front of my children or abuse someone in authority (which is how i view train guards) in their presence, with abusive parent children will think that this kind of behavior is acceptable.

 

[Flamingo]

FGW: Buggies should be folded. No exceptions.

If they are not causing an obstruction then I don't have a problem with them. If they are, then they are the same as any other item, they get sorted or they get removed. HST's are a bit easier as there are the two wheelchair spaces, which unless needed by a wheelchair will fit four buggies (plus another couple outside the DSB toilet door).

The lack of buggy space is not a reason for a free upgrade into the 1st class wheelchair space (a someone paid £110 last week to find out on one of my trains).

As with all things, some parents are very considerate towards other passengers, and do their best to control and amuse their children during their journey, some are inconsiderate gits who thinks the world owes them a living (whether they have a kid with them or not).

The bigger picture is that they will bring up the children in the same way, unless they learn that sort of behaviour is unacceptable. They will never learn unless someone tells them.

 

[anthony263]

I do think parenting standards have dropped. parents are too busy with work etc.

I think we saw this plainly during the riots, i mean didnt the parents know where their kids are.

Slightly going off topic : No matter what it is always someone else's fault and they darling is a little angel even when confronted with the cctv which shows they kid plainly as what happened when the boss went to a local comprehensive school to play hell because the kids had used a knife to slash the seats

 

[Flamingo]

I do think parenting standards have dropped. parents are too busy with work etc.

I work, my wife works, if my kids behaved like that on a train they would be in for a hiding of their life (and they know it).

The problems with the rioters came from kids whose parents never worked (or didn't even know who they were!).

It has to do with people never having to face up to consequences.

A while ago I had a family who I had to kick out of first class (they claimed they couldn't find their std class booked seats, and that they wouldn't move, untill told they were all being kicked off at Reading), then had to bollock the parents for their behaviour and their 10-12year olds behaviour later in the journey (football chants, throwing things, ripping safety cards up- and that was the parents). They were told in no uncertain terms that BTP would be meeting them if they did not behave, and what class of behaviour was that in front of their children, and it would be as well for them to see BTP next stop, as it would not be the first time they would be in a police station with their kids if that was the upbringing they were having.

A few weeks later, same family in 1st class, now on 1st class tickets, they did a double take when they saw me, I pretended not to know them. They were quiet as mice all journey, no hassle, not problems. They could do it when they had to!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Maybe they should re-introduce Third Class and label it as the Jeremy Kyle Lounge Car.

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe they should re-introduce Third Class and label it as the Jeremy Kyle Lounge Car.

Naw, to be fair, you can get contestants for Mr Kyle in 1st class as well

 

[WelshBluebird]

The problems with the rioters came from kids whose parents never worked (or didn't even know who they were!).

To be fair, that is harsh.
Many peoples parents do not work for one reason or another, and they do not turn out like that!
And in terms of the riots, a few stories have cropped up about some of the people being from very well to do families who have parents in very nice jobs.

It has to do with people never having to face up to consequences.

Indeed, it has more to do with that than the parents not working.

 

[anthony263]

My aprents dont work because their are both disabled although my father did work before he lost his eyesight. I think they did a good job raising myself and my younger brother & sister. None of us were spoilt, yet as my father said if you want anything out of life you have to work for it.

I went to university to improve my education etc, i am currently unemployed not by my own choice but because no one will employ me despite all the jobs i have applied for

 

[Greenback]

It's not really much to do with whether the parents are working or not. We are now reaping the benefits of kids being brought up by parents who weren't brought up to behave properly.

The problems just get worse with every new generation.

 

[SS4]

It's not really much to do with whether the parents are working or not. We are now reaping the benefits of kids being brought up by parents who weren't brought up to behave properly.

The problems just get worse with every new generation.

Do I smell a self-fulfilling prophecy?

You may find this article interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15237906. The gist (albeit not from the most neutral source but when was the last time we had a neutral thinktank) is that not much has changed

edit: to not digress too much I'll add that I've seen very well behaved children on the bus, often they're better than the adults who accompany them!

 

[Nym]

All I'll add to the not brought up properly is that I feel like I was the last person on this planet who was.

Was once on a 150 with a converted parcels area, on NT, with the bike space and bus bench seating down each end, and this is the only time I've known a pushchair (yes it was one of these) to be necessary.

Mother on her own, two small (under 1) year old babies, best behaved I've seen on a train, partly because they where in the process of being fed and entertained by said mother who was sat next to the bike rack, double pushchair adjacent and facing her to look after them, and to this day I don't know how she kept them entertained, happy and fed (she was making up powdered formula while the train was in motion and she was keeping them happy).

Back when I was growing up (and this isn't that long ago) buggies where in very common use on buses, since where I grew up there wasn't that many cars. (God now I do sound old, I'm really not) and parents at the bus stop, would be stood with nothing on the pushchair, child in it, ready to break down, and they where Leyland Olympian (Stagecoach in Hull or EYMS) buses, the procedure would be (and was a generally accepted etiquette) that they'd be allowed on in the 2nd group (after OAP and disabled passengers) getting on involved, pick up child in left arm, break down buggy and lift it into the luggage area (that buses don't have now because it contains the box for the metro newspapers) go back, pay driver, and then go and sit down. This took all of 15 - 20 seconds, less time than it takes to faff around putting them on whole on First GM Buses North now. Not been on a stagecoach in Hull bus in a while so don't know if the lazyness has spread or not yet.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not been on a stagecoach in Hull bus in a while so don't know if the lazyness has spread or not yet.

I don't know about the Stagecoach side of buses in Hull but on EYMS it certainly has, fairly often on runs between Cottingham and City Centre you'll pick up a few of these all terrain prams or a buggie that parents won't fold down. Blocks the aisle and slows everything down.

 

[SS4]

I don't know about the Stagecoach side of buses in Hull but on EYMS it certainly has, fairly often on runs between Cottingham and City Centre you'll pick up a few of these all terrain prams or a buggie that parents won't fold down. Blokes the aisle and slows everything down.

Same with NXWM, hence their ruling in May that only 2 unfolded buggies may be stored onboard at any one time.

You'd get them blocking the aisle and woe betide the look you got if you asked them to move it. The worst ones of all are on the school run. I have no problem with bringing younger kids on the school run but surely they should expect others will do the same and be prepared

 

[Nym]

Used to be the other way round, try getting on a Leyland Olympian or similar in Kingston upon Hull with the buggy intact and you'd be left stood there and everyone giving you evil looks, or in most cases shouting at you to break it down.

 

[richw]

Our pushchair folded down is 2 seperate pieces, both quite large. Carrying the baby and both pieces of pushchair is impossible, so unless my wife can take it onto the train with the baby inside the pushchair train travel is a impossible task. Despite flamingo saying FGW only allow folded, the TMs here are normally sensible and get the parents with lightweight buggys to fold them up, and allow the parents with proper sized prams to keep them as they are with baby inside.
the lightweight buggys are generally unsuitable for children under 9 months anyway, so a baby in a buggy is generally a lot easier to hold than a new born which would be in a full sized pram

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not really much to do with whether the parents are working or not. We are now reaping the benefits of kids being brought up by parents who weren't brought up to behave properly.

The problems just get worse with every new generation.

Words of wisdom flow from the Welsh valleys again..

There are places in the south of Manchester that now have seen three generations of the type of "underclass" that you describe. None of these have any values to pass on to their offspring.

 

[Flamingo]

Despite flamingo saying FGW only allow folded, the TMs here are normally sensible and get the parents with lightweight buggys to fold them up, and allow the parents with proper sized prams to keep them as they are with baby inside.
the lightweight buggys are generally unsuitable for children under 9 months anyway, so a baby in a buggy is generally a lot easier to hold than a new born which would be in a full sized pram

We are usually sensible if the parents are as well, but on crowded trains where someone is insisting on sitting in the middle of coach D with the pram in the aisle, then it is nice to have a policy with no loopholes that can be thrown back at you.

 

[Greenback]

Do I smell a self-fulfilling prophecy?

You may find this article interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15237906. The gist (albeit not from the most neutral source but when was the last time we had a neutral thinktank) is that not much has changed

edit: to not digress too much I'll add that I've seen very well behaved children on the bus, often they're better than the adults who accompany them!

I don't think so!

There are some excellent parents with well behaved children. I know a few myself. These are usually well balanced people who have been brought up by parents who have a strong sense of right and wrong, consideration for others, and a realisation that all behaviour has a consequence for other people.

If a parent or parents is the product of an upbringing where these values are weaker, or not really present at all, then it must be more likely that they will be unable to pass them on to the next generation. Not impossible, just more likely.

It's an interesting article. It is clearly from an angle that is defending the behaviour of today's youth. You can't really argue with the fact that young people are just as likely to be on the end of rude behaviour as instigate it. That sort of backs up the point that parents in their late 20's and early 30's can be just as unpleasant.

I take the point that every generation thinks of a golden age. My argument is slightly different though. I am talking of a section of society that exists, which simply does not know how to behave in a civilised manner. It is not based upon age, gender, income or location, but the gap between the behaviour sets exhibited by the minority and the rest is wide, and getting wider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We are usually sensible if the parents are as well, but on crowded trains where someone is insisting on sitting in the middle of coach D with the pram in the aisle, then it is nice to have a policy with no loopholes that can be thrown back at you.

This is an example of the type of person I am referring to. They usually have no realisation of the impact of their actions on others, but even when they do, they don't care.

I think this can, in the majority of cases, be traced back to the way they have been brought up, although other factors have undoubtedly made a contribution too.

 

[jon0844]

Of course there were badly behaved people in the 'old days' but many were punished that aren't now. We're now told to allow people to express themselves, but people need boundaries.

When you get a job, you have rules to obey. Most things in life have rules, and you don't just pick and choose (well, people do - hence moaning when they're caught for what they regard as a petty offence and kick off on why the police aren't out catching rapists).

Life has rules too. I am not religious, but the commandments are pretty much common sense and logical.

I think the problem now is that it's a far more materialistic world and people want more. I am sure the expectations of someone 100 years ago is a lot different to now. We now regard not having a decent TV, Sky, Xbox, iPhone and other gadgets as living in poverty.

Surely the definition of poverty hasn't changed that much - and will still refer to being clothed, sheltered and fed? That's this sense of entitlement that people have. They MUST be able to have all these things, even if many don't actually make your life any more fulfilling after a while - some even separating you from the normal social contact that humans need.

 

[Greenback]

Some people think they have the right to everything, even when it impinges on the rights of others.

Another major contributor to upbringing, which you mention, is that schools have been too keen to encourage freedom of expression rather than establishing and reinforcing the idea of responsibility to others. The balance between the two has been eroded.

 

[talltim]

Our pushchair folded down is 2 seperate pieces, both quite large. Carrying the baby and both pieces of pushchair is impossible, so unless my wife can take it onto the train with the baby inside the pushchair train travel is a impossible task. Despite flamingo saying FGW only allow folded, the TMs here are normally sensible and get the parents with lightweight buggys to fold them up, and allow the parents with proper sized prams to keep them as they are with baby inside.
the lightweight buggys are generally unsuitable for children under 9 months anyway, so a baby in a buggy is generally a lot easier to hold than a new born which would be in a full sized pram

Why didn't you buy a sensible pushchair then?

 

[richw]

Why didn't you buy a sensible pushchair then?

Comfort for the baby, the smaller ones are awfully uncomfortable, as a result my little girl sleeps peacefully in the one she has.
(Oh and the wife having to have the fashionable ones.)

 

[Tracky]

I am told that as a baby I was pushed around in a pram with my back to the direction of travel so that my mum could see me and chat to me...

When travelling, I was put in a light foldable pushchair. I can't comment on it being uncomfortable - long since forgotten, but it was practical.

That said, my mum didnt need a cup holder for her costa bomb coffee... Also, they were well built bits of kit. At least a brother and sister had used them before me...

 

[IanPooleTrains]

First of all, if it has not been said, please accept my congratulations on welcoming baby deltic into the world

Now unfortaunetly, this isn't my area of expertise as I don't have kids of my own but having several brothers and a couple of baby sisters as well however, it does look like different TOCs have different guidelines so it is kinda up in the air

 

[mappman1000]

I hate it when arrogant parents put their prams, especially the ones that have those stupid 4x4 wheels, infront of the doors in Mark 3's, and then they give you funny looks when you try to move it to get off the train.

 

[AndrewP]

Seems to me that what we are talking about is courtesy - pure and simple

We used to have a big, expensive buggy for the 2 kids when they were little and it took up a lot of space (but less than a normal double buggy) and have always traveled extensively with the kids (now 4 and 6).

If it was for a long journey we would disassemble it and stow it in luggage areas and for shorter journeys we would sometimes block doors but move it out the way at stations etc so no one was impeded.

If staff told us to move it then we did - there was always a reason and it was never a problem.

Even now we buy an extra seat for long journeys so we do not cause problems.

The trick is to avoid causing problems for those around us (although my eldest did once throw up all over a Pendolino vestibule).

One classic I did have was on a London bus where I was once asked to move my buggy by a passenger so she could put her buggy in the place mine was already. I obviously said no and the driver made her get off to waves of laughter!!

One question - which has priority a buggy or an unreserved cycle? Does it simply depend on who was there first?

 

[317666]

I hate it when arrogant parents put their prams, especially the ones that have those stupid 4x4 wheels, infront of the doors in Mark 3's, and then they give you funny looks when you try to move it to get off the train.

I hate it when people put anything, be it bikes, prams or suitcases, in front of the doors and you have to move it to get off!

 

[Scotrail84]

FGW: Buggies should be folded. No exceptions.

If they are not causing an obstruction then I don't have a problem with them. If they are, then they are the same as any other item, they get sorted or they get removed. HST's are a bit easier as there are the two wheelchair spaces, which unless needed by a wheelchair will fit four buggies (plus another couple outside the DSB toilet door).

The lack of buggy space is not a reason for a free upgrade into the 1st class wheelchair space (a someone paid £110 last week to find out on one of my trains).

As with all things, some parents are very considerate towards other passengers, and do their best to control and amuse their children during their journey, some are inconsiderate gits who thinks the world owes them a living (whether they have a kid with them or not).

The bigger picture is that they will bring up the children in the same way, unless they learn that sort of behaviour is unacceptable. They will never learn unless someone tells them.

LOL ive been told by a pregnant passenger that she was entitled to sit in 1st class because there was no seats in standard, but there was seats seats she just wanted to sit in 1st for free.:roll:

 

[mappman1000]

I obviously said no and the driver made her get off to waves of laughter!!

Denied!

 

[Flamingo]

LOL ive been told by a pregnant passenger that she was entitled to sit in 1st class because there was no seats in standard, but there was seats seats she just wanted to sit in 1st for free.:roll:

I was asked on a nearly empty train last weekend what was the policy on pregnant women sitting in First Class. I explained that with a season ticket and a letter from customer services then they could if standard class was full, otherwise it was the same as the policy for every other ticket holder.

They took it in good part and paid the weekend upgrade, to be fair.