Practicality of a Jubilee & Bakerloo line merger?

[AzureOtsu]

So I've seen it come up on this forums on the past about the prospect of closing the JLE due to low passenger counts but the counter argument has always been that canary wharf and surrounding areas will lose a vital service to central London. With the Elizabeth line now open this is no longer an issue.

So the idea has been buzzing around in my head to analyse the feasibility of merging the two lines as one until new trains can be bought for the bakerloo, with the Stanmore branch having services to both elephant and Castle & Stratford albeit with a massively reduced service.

This would allow the 1996 stock to run on both lines and allow the aging 1972 stock to be retired, but are there enough 1996 stock trains to cover all these routes even with service reductions?

 

[bramling]

So I've seen it come up on this forums on the past about the prospect of closing the JLE due to low passenger counts but the counter argument has always been that canary wharf and surrounding areas will lose a vital service to central London. With the Elizabeth line now open this is no longer an issue.

So the idea has been buzzing around in my head to analyse the feasibility of merging the two lines as one until new trains can be bought for the bakerloo, with the Stanmore branch having services to both elephant and Castle & Stratford albeit with a massively reduced service.

This would allow the 1996 stock to run on both lines and allow the aging 1972 stock to be retired, but are there enough 1996 stock trains to cover all these routes even with service reductions?

No way near enough 96 stock. The fleet is stretched now, and even with service reductions this is not going to make a massive dent on that. On top of that you’d have issues to overcome getting the 96 stock to work on the Bakerloo, not least that in 7-car form they’re too long.

If modern trains were going to be released from elsewhere to displace the 72 stock, the best bet would be to steal 20 or so trains from the Northern, and ditch the Bakerloo service north of Queen’s Park. Even this would require the Northern Line service to be crucified, and probably require significant clearance work on the Bakerloo.

LU will have to manage with the 72 stock, and if things get to a problem point then there *might* be the possibility of replacing them with 73 stock off the Picc when their new trains arrive, albeit work would again be required to fit them. Despite only being a couple of years younger the 73 stock is in a better condition (and was a better train from the start), and had more work done during its refurbishment. You’d also have a significant pool of spares as the Bakerloo would take less then half the fleet.

Time will tell how the 72 stock holds up. LU is certainly doing work to them, though there perhaps does need to be a realisation that at 50 years they are likely to need some significant care and attention going forward. Judging by the external state one wonders if this will be forthcoming!

 

[rebmcr]

I don't recall anybody ever suggesting that the JLE is a candidate for closure. It certainly doesn't have low passenger numbers, it's one of the busiest sections of the underground, and provides several of the few important Thames crossings east of the City.

 

[bramling]

I don't recall anybody ever suggesting that the JLE is a candidate for closure. It certainly doesn't have low passenger numbers, it's one of the busiest sections of the underground, and provides several of the few important Thames crossings east of the City.

Yes and the busiest part of the Jubilee tends to be Waterloo to Stratford. Whilst Crossrail will redistribute some of these journeys (especially when it serves Stratford from central London), I’m not sure it will ease the load that significantly. As you rightly say, part of the JLE’s original rationale was to cross the river numerous times to open up journey opportunities.

 

[PTR 444]

So the idea has been buzzing around in my head to analyse the feasibility of merging the two lines as one until new trains can be bought for the bakerloo, with the Stanmore branch having services to both elephant and Castle & Stratford albeit with a massively reduced service.

How would this look on the tube map?

Assuming you keep the Queens Park branch of the Bakerloo open, you won’t be able to run trains from there to the Jubilee south of Baker Street as there is no track connection in that direction. If your merged lines take a single tube line identity, you’d need to make the travelling public aware that they cannot make such journey on a direct train. See the separate Northern Line branches at Kennington as an example for how it can be shown.

 

[rebmcr]

Yes and the busiest part of the Jubilee tends to be Waterloo to Stratford. Whilst Crossrail will redistribute some of these journeys (especially when it serves Stratford from central London), I’m not sure it will ease the load that significantly. As you rightly say, part of the JLE’s original rationale was to cross the river numerous times to open up journey opportunities.

It's not just about Canary Wharf and Stratford — Canning Town has already been a major traffic generator for many years, with even more new development around it either just opening, or being constructed. It featured heavily in the news coverage of Extinction Rebellion blockades for good reason! DLR connections to Bank and to the three surrounding Elizabeth Line stations would not be able to cope.

 

[londonboi]

How would this look on the tube map?

Assuming you keep the Queens Park branch of the Bakerloo open, you won’t be able to run trains from there to the Jubilee south of Baker Street as there is no track connection in that direction. If your merged lines take a single tube line identity, you’d need to make the travelling public aware that they cannot make such journey on a direct train. See the separate Northern Line branches at Kennington as an example for how it can be shown.

There is a track connection at baker street onto each line as that is how engineering trains gain access and depart

 

[PTR 444]

There is a track connection at baker street onto each line as that is how engineering trains gain access and depart

That is true, but only in the Eastbound Jubilee - Eastbound Bakerloo (and vice versa) direction. No connection exists for Eastbound Bakerloo - Eastbound Jubilee, hence my earlier comment of not being able to run direct Harrow & Wealdstone/Queens Park to Stratford trains.

 

[thomalex]

Low passenger counts on the JLE!! Don’t know where you’ve got that from.

Anyway would it be the Jubiloo or the Bakerlee?

 

[43096]

Anyway would it be the Jubiloo or the Bakerlee?

Given the lack of trains to resource it discussed up thread, wouldn't the resulting thinning of services mean it should be the "Bakelite"?

I'll get me coat...

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the lack of trains to resource it discussed up thread, wouldn't the resulting thinning of services mean it should be the "Bakelite"?

I'll get me coat...

Jubiless or Jubilean

I must admit I don‘t actually remember “low passenger numbers” on the Jubilee ever being discussed before.

 

[Recessio]

Low passenger counts on the JLE!! Don’t know where you’ve got that from.

Was thinking exactly the same thing - the original poster has clearly never tried entering Canada Water in the morning rush hour...

 

[vinnym70]

Weirdly random thinking. JLE seems very loaded at most times.

The eastern end alone has some massive interchanges and captive populations:

Stratford for Greater Anglia, Overground, DLR, Tube and all the people who live/work there (Westfield+residential developments in the legacy Olympic park)
West Ham for C2C and Tube
Canning Town for DLR and a major bus interchange
North Greenwich for folks who live south of the river and all the people who live/work there (O2)
Canary Wharf for Elizabeth line, DLR and all the people who live/work there
Canada Water Overground, folks who live south of the river or work in Surrey Quays

 

[D365]

Eh what? This is beserk.

 

[Magdalia]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the history yet. Stanmore was a branch of the Bakerloo Line until the Jubilee line was built from Baker Street to Charing Cross in the 1970s.

 

[Snow1964]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the history yet. Stanmore was a branch of the Bakerloo Line until the Jubilee line was built from Baker Street to Charing Cross in the 1970s.

The Stanmore branch was actually built by the Metropolitan Railway, it only transferred to Bakerloo in late 1930s (date slipped, due to outbreak of war taking away staff).

A new pair of tube tunnels was driven from Finchley Road to Baker Street. At Baker Street the junctions were north of station northbound, but an extra platform was built southbound so junction was beyond. The northbound Jubilee line platform was part of the Fleet line works in 1970s. The jun

The Dive under at Wembley and rearrangement of tracks so the slow lines were centre pair from Finchley Road to Doris Hill and on to Wembley were all done in 1938-39

 

[WideRanger]

The OP seems to be confused about which parts of the Jubilee Line are the busiest. The JLE is the busiest part, with the run up to Stanmore the less busy part. So the thread is predicated on a misconception.

 

[skyhigh]

So I've seen it come up on this forums on the past about the prospect of closing the JLE due to low passenger counts

Do you have a link to this discussion?

 

[cle]

Why not close the Victoria line!

Imagine thinking that Crossrail was to replace 'anything' and not to augment things like the Central and Jubilee lines. Or that Canary Wharf is a single node which needs one line/stop. The Crossrail station location is completely different - Canary Wharf is now a city sized area, not one point.

The Jubilee is slammed, and does so much more. North Greenwich and Canada Water being two important spots which rely on it - and thus, the whole ELL. It feeds City Airport via DLR and the Beckton line (pre-Custom House Crossrail) - C2C into Canary Wharf... I could go on and on.

 

[Cowley]

It looks like the question has been answered with this one and it’s a fairly hefty No!

So we’ll leave it at that. Thanks everyone.