Powys Bus Changes

[markymark2000]

The Traveline information in Wales is always pretty poor - being inaccurate or out of date. I understand it is run from within TfW and not directly from the main UK Traveline organisation - which no doubt explains that.

Correct. TFW run Traveline Cymru (who in turn sends data to the main Traveline database). The only bits of Welsh data that don't come from Traveline Cymru I believe is First and Stagecoach.

That said, I do have some sympathy for Traveline Cymru given Powys Council has only given operators permission to release timetables within the past week or so. And everyone has seen how poor information has been upto now. Hopefully they will have it all sorted in the next week or so. That said, Dumfries and Galloway (who sort their own Traveline data then send it up to Traveline Scotland before it finally reaches the main Traveline database) still haven't sorted all of their timetables out for their changes 2 weeks ago, so who knows.

New Powys Zonal Ticket tube style Network Maps should be on the ticketing pages of Lloyds Coaches tomorrow, see the Powys Day/Weekly Rover Network Map as an example

Very pleased to see this finally come about. It's been long overdue in Powys. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Llandudno]

New Powys Zonal Ticket tube style Network Maps should be on the ticketing pages of Lloyds Coaches tomorrow, see the Powys Day/Weekly Rover Network Map as an example

View attachment 187607

The map is fantastic, it could do with being slightly less cluttered, howabout two versions one in Welsh and one in English would provide more white space and make it easier to decipher?

 

[SW Buses]

Which in and of itself is a damning indictment given the great TfW plans for franchising is they will do it all better - yet a near franchise example in Powys and they still can’t deliver. It’s inexcusable.

Correct. TFW run Traveline Cymru (who in turn sends data to the main Traveline database). The only bits of Welsh data that don't come from Traveline Cymru I believe is First and Stagecoach.

 

[markymark2000]

Which in and of itself is a damning indictment given the great TfW plans for franchising is they will do it all better - yet a near franchise example in Powys and they still can’t deliver. It’s inexcusable.

You can look at the new South West Wales network and come to the same conclusions. Ran by consultants, for consultants.
They are asking your opinions on the new routes but don't give proper details on the changes to the new routes. There are industry professionals in South West Wales who can't even understand what on earth TFW is proposing, how are passengers meant to know?
Not like a consultation matters anyway if Powys is anything to go by, the end results will be something completely different anyway.

 

[RELL6L]

You can look at the new South West Wales network and come to the same conclusions. Ran by consultants, for consultants.
They are asking your opinions on the new routes but don't give proper details on the changes to the new routes. There are industry professionals in South West Wales who can't even understand what on earth TFW is proposing, how are passengers meant to know?
Not like a consultation matters anyway if Powys is anything to go by, the end results will be something completely different anyway.

First I have heard of the South West Wales consultation. I've googled it and found something about it, maybe this should be in a separate thread.

South West Wales Bus Network

Your bus service, Your Voice – have your say on our Proposed Base Network Local Authorities in South West Wales and Transport for Wales are working together to propose some improvements to the bus network, in preparation for wider bus reform. We want to hear from you to

haveyoursay.tfw.wales

You have to register to complete the survey and. not being local, I haven't done this. What is available from the website is really useless. There is a list of bus routes, some the same, some different. Some maps indicate 'core services' but they are almost useless. They have thick lines and broken lines. Thick lines are used for services hourly or better, broken ones for lesser - except in Swansea where the thick lines is every 30 minutes or better. Some of the lines are it is difficult to see clearly if they are thick or broken and you can't enlarge it. Nothing to indicate how frequent individual routes might be. There is a list of routes, some are as now and some are not, but no frequencies. In Swansea the majority are broken, so worse than 2 per hour, but no details. In the other areas the only things I could take out of it were the T11 Haverfordwest - St Davids - Fishguard is thick, so proposed to increase to hourly, ditto the X13 all the way through to Llandeilo, both good. But Llanelli to Pontarddulais is dotted so a reduction here I think.

How can you ask someone's opinion on something without telling them what it is? Just abysmal!

 

[markymark2000]

How can you ask someone's opinion on something without telling them what it is? Just abysmal!

I won't talk fully about the proposals because I agree that would be for another thread.

I ask though, is it better to make the consultation so awful that no one knows what is happening (as such no one can complain and it ticks a 'we did a consultation' checkbox) or is it best to do things the Powys way and do a consultation, have lots of people agree with the changes being made, then completely change the network so it's very different to what was consulted on? Both network reviews are led in some way by TFW. I will let people draw their conclusions but if Powys and the new South West Wales network are something to go by, is it any surprise that post Covid recovery is so low in Wales and why the networks struggle so much? Just incompetence at every level.

 

[SW Buses]

I won't talk fully about the proposals because I agree that would be for another thread.

I ask though, is it better to make the consultation so awful that no one knows what is happening (as such no one can complain and it ticks a 'we did a consultation' checkbox) or is it best to do things the Powys way and do a consultation, have lots of people agree with the changes being made, then completely change the network so it's very different to what was consulted on? Both network reviews are led in some way by TFW. I will let people draw their conclusions but if Powys and the new South West Wales network are something to go by, is it any surprise that post Covid recovery is so low in Wales and why the networks struggle so much? Just incompetence at every level.

And the extra fed caveat in that if they can’t afford to procure today’s network, it’ll mean a lessor ‘franchised’ network and in the consultation your asked which service you’d be happy to see left out of the plans so they can remain within budget.

Essentially there is no money for franchising. The view is that they can take the current spend, and that’ll do. Utter mess. The Welsh bus network is heading to a very dim and dark place.

 

[greenline712]

And the extra fed caveat in that if they can’t afford to procure today’s network, it’ll mean a lessor ‘franchised’ network and in the consultation your asked which service you’d be happy to see left out of the plans so they can remain within budget.

Essentially there is no money for franchising. The view is that they can take the current spend, and that’ll do. Utter mess. The Welsh bus network is heading to a very dim and dark place.

Roger French has been for a couple of bus rides around Powys recently.

24 hours in mid Wales

Tuesday 9th September 2025 As mentioned in recent blogs, last week saw a number of changes to bus routes in Powys, not least significant surgery to the TrawsCymru network through the county. Wherea…

busandtrainuser.com

 

[RELL6L]

It seems to have gone under the radar but the X76 has been cut back to operate as far as Oswestry only, ditching the section in England to Gobowen and St Martins. The rest of the timetable is unchanged leading to apparent long layovers in Oswestry. Tanat Valley's own published timetable shows this with absurdities such as a 7 minute journey into Oswestry arriving at 06.12 which would then leave at 07.03. BusTimes suggests this positioning journey has gone. In the evening though the 19.31 arrival then leaves to head back to Welshpool at 20.26 when a departure at say 19.36 would be much more sensible! The X76 now appears to interwork with other services at the Oswestry end including the 576 at certain hours.

The odd thing is that I can't find anything about this change anywhere. No googling brings it up, no mention on Tanat Valley's webpage. Anyone know the story?

 

[markymark2000]

It seems to have gone under the radar but the X76 has been cut back to operate as far as Oswestry only, ditching the section in England to Gobowen and St Martins. The rest of the timetable is unchanged leading to apparent long layovers in Oswestry. Tanat Valley's own published timetable shows this with absurdities such as a 7 minute journey into Oswestry arriving at 06.12 which would then leave at 07.03. BusTimes suggests this positioning journey has gone. In the evening though the 19.31 arrival then leaves to head back to Welshpool at 20.26 when a departure at say 19.36 would be much more sensible! The X76 now appears to interwork with other services at the Oswestry end including the 576 at certain hours.

The odd thing is that I can't find anything about this change anywhere. No googling brings it up, no mention on Tanat Valley's webpage. Anyone know the story?

It stopped running between St Martins and Gobowen on 15th September. https://www.facebook.com/TanatValle...cyNUJ1RT6aeagCuQJ4NatKevXNKvKgACxFqWJxUcUayAl
Then on 27th October, the service got cut between Oswestry and Gobowen. https://www.facebook.com/TanatValle...8WxbDcu5jLDBUEo8oVC6wZDAuS7fTyF25UKuBvNAf5Hrl

In reality though in this time, not many buses actually got to Gobowen or St Martins due to staff shortages or delays. There was a lot of 'running what they want, when they want' with shed loads of complaints from passengers (well, would-be passengers).
Even now though, no one knows the actual times. Tanat Valley has one timetable. Traveline entries which strangely come in from Shropshire council show something completely different (mostly because Shropshire can't be bothered to keep things up to date. They still show the Celtic X75 despite it ceasing 3 months ago! Traveline refuses to move to slightly more reliable Traveline Cymru data). Then bus tracking tends to show something different again. Then because Tanat Valley refuse to properly comply with Bus Open Data legislation (of course I am only referring to routes which operate into England. Of which the X76 is one of those routes), there is no more definitive answer there. It's an absolute mess and poor passengers don't know whether they are coming or going.

In Sargeants areas, the X44/39A situation on Sundays has been resolved by Powys no longer running the X44 to Hereford (why on earth they couldn't have just consulted with Herefordshire Council and Hay Tourism group in the first place and sacked off the 39A and put the X44 on properly, god only knows. Presumably too much common sense? The X44 also gained an evening 20:50 trip from Brecon which I presume is just there to replace dead mileage. In true Sargeants style (couldn't organise a kids party at soft play), the service operates the route of the X15, but is numbered the X44 (you'd think this was rocket science)


Some articles which you may enjoy:
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/25491608.powys-council-admits-cut-entire-bus-service-mistake/ "Powys County Council has admitted it cut an entire bus service because of an "administrative error" during the tender process."
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/...-bus-changes-will-deter-public-transport-use/ - Concerns because connections weren't working and Tanat 'didn't know where the connecting bus was' (despite the bus being ran by Tanat...
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/...owys-bus-services-will-make-public-stay-home/ - Complaints about the services and how it doesn't work (X76/X77)
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/25494325.councillors-back-review-wrexham-maelor-hospital-parking/ - Tittle tattle between Wrexham Council and Powys over whether there was consultation between councils about the T12 changes.
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/25601617.letter-powys-council-needs-re-think-bus-timetables/ - Passengers finding connections are being missed (Who'd have thought I'd be right all along. Buses don't wait for connecting routes. That's why you don't build an entire network on short connections)

This is all before you look at the amount of money wasted on some buses which are costing Taxpayers silly amounts of money to sit around keeping layover bays warm, rather than providing any actual bus service (Williams X43 on Sundays which gets 2 hours of layover every 4 hours because 'thou must connect onto T4' rubbish)

 

[DaveHarries]

In Sargeants areas, the X44/39A situation on Sundays has been resolved by Powys no longer running the X44 to Hereford

Don't bet on it: I just ran a TT search for the X44 on TravelineSW which still shows Hereford to Brecon 7 days per week.

Dave

 

[markymark2000]

Don't bet on it: I just ran a TT search for the X44 on TravelineSW which still shows Hereford to Brecon 7 days per week.

Dave

Traveline isn't up to date. For some bizzare reason, Traveline insist on using Shropshire and Herefordshire Traveline entries (which are more often than not, incorrect) over that of Traveline Cymru (which for the many faults they have, do seem to be slightly more accurate) where routes operate cross border. It's an ongoing mess and I know it's been raised with Traveline and Traveline Cymru many times and put simply they just ignore emails about it and don't give a stuff that they keep giving outdated information. The care for data quality on Traveline now is zilch sadly.

This is the most up to date timetable for the X44: https://www.sargeantsbros.com/media/5hkhxs4x/x44-from-27-october-2025-pdf.pdf

 

[RELL6L]

What a shambles! How not to organise a bus network.... so they are going to roll out this model for the whole of Wales?

The 72 now appears to run by Tanat Valley but that sounds a mess.

Publicity is still a mess. I hadn't followed the X44 saga but have maintained an interest in the Owens 87 between Welshpool and Llanfair Caereinion as I have a plan to possibly use it some day. The original Powys proposals included school and peak hour journeys. Owens no longer have a link to a timetable on their website. The Traveline timetable shows a morning journey to the school in Welshpool but only on schooldays. The afternoon journey runs from the school, but only runs in school holidays! I think this is mirrored in the BusTimes timetable but is clearly nonsense. I think the school time runs just run on non-schooldays, probably a private school contract. Owens vehicles on BusTimes show nothing operating recently, except on Saturdays.

 

[K219UHA]

In regards to Tanat Valley and the 72 and X76.

The 72 was indeed blamed on an administrative error with Powys. In reality. it was due to the X76 going hourly and covering sections of the 72, 74 gaining improvements and wanting people to change at Llanymynech or Four Crosses to get to Oswestry. A number of local sources also tell me, Powys were more keen to get better use of the 76 to Welshpool from Llanfyllin. Despite Oswestry been in England, its very much considered the default local market town for Llanfyllin, Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant, Llangynog etc, due to Oswesty's Welsh origins. The local councillor of Llanfyllin got the ball moving to get the 72 reinstated from early September, many workings divert now via Trefonen and only a few via Llynclys that have a 79A timed that already serves Trefonen the the delightful coverage of Blodwel Bank. A coincidence now, the quite nice diversion on the 72 trips has been lost. no longer cover Morton and Bryn Melyn section of Llynclys. Tanat are indeed poor with open data updates, everything online for the 72 is wrong, apart if you access it direct on their website, old google searches bring up the old and wrong timetables still!

The X76 saga I previously commented, a number of reliable sources whom I won't disclose inform and cannot account for full accuracy, so will provide what was suggested, Arriva were unhappy with commercial services via Gobowen i.e. the 2 and 53 (excluding Saturday 53 funding) having a Powys funded services, extracting customers and running in most cases in front of the 2. Tanat were told to terminate the service into September to Gobowen by the former post office, inorder to still allow a link to the railway station, by late October the service no longer extending from Oswestry. Operationally the service was a nightmare with lost workings, and passengers were taking to local social media regarding it, to the extent a local councillor in Oswestry got in dialogue with both Powys and Shropshire Councils to gain answers. Since the changes, better efficiency in Tanat duties has been established and they rarely seem to have any issues of late.

 

[markymark2000]

so they are going to roll out this model for the whole of Wales?

Seemingly so. Powys had a low bar to start with and somehow they have managed to excel at being even worse than their existing low bar. And yet somehow more and more contracts have been awarded to very low quality operators.

It's what happens now though in local authorities or TFW is no one is held accountable. Heads should be rolling and people should be sacked for this ongoing level of incompetence. Council jobs are jobs for life, no matter how badly you do the job sadly.

Owens no longer have a link to a timetable on their website. The Traveline timetable shows a morning journey to the school in Welshpool but only on schooldays. The afternoon journey runs from the school, but only runs in school holidays! I think this is mirrored in the BusTimes timetable but is clearly nonsense. I think the school time runs just run on non-schooldays, probably a private school contract. Owens vehicles on BusTimes show nothing operating recently, except on Saturdays.

Owens have always been a bad sloppy operator with service promotion. It's a huge shame as the coach work they do is really really good, but service work they put no effort in at all.

Data on bustimes comes from Traveline, and Traveline in this instance gets it's information from Traveline Cymru (managed by TFW). Essentially, it's all the same data and comes from the same root place. Hence why they all show the same issues.

As proven across the TrawsCymru network though, TFW doesn't see passenger information as a high priority and so it's largely abandoned. If you report the issues to them, normally months later it's still an issue. I know of many route issues on Traveline Cymru which have been reported and they just won't fix them, and similarly had a number of issues with TFW Rail side refusing to update the stations knowledgebase despite some information being 10+ years out of date. It seems to by a systemic thing within TFW to not care a single bit about information given to passengers.