Potentially massive delays in electrification program

[Haydn1971]

Nothing shabby with 140mph running! Especially given that you would expect to see at least one intermediate station (Huddersfield comes to mind) along the route.

Completely agree, the sheer cost of a 400kph alignment isn't sensible for HS3, given that the journey improvements over a "standard" 125-140mph line would be minimal due to the intermediate stations.

 

[petersi]

From the bbc wbsite
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-30531457
I wonder if this will also delay cross rail

 

[northwichcat]

Posted on another forum that the Sunday Times reported yesterday that DfT are expected to confirm North TPE electrification will be delayed until December 2021 (to allow a greater focus on completing other schemes like Great Western electrification on time) and that the next TPE franchise will include a requirement for new diesel trains, which will allow some 185s to be moved to new routes from December 2018 (as previously envisaged.)

 

[WatcherZero]

Feeling in my bones (not specific knowledge) would be ITT published midnight or 9am tommorow.

 

[HSTEd]

Completely agree, the sheer cost of a 400kph alignment isn't sensible for HS3, given that the journey improvements over a "standard" 125-140mph line would be minimal due to the intermediate stations.

Intermediate stations are almost irrelevant - they run through stations at 300km/h in Japan and France (albiet in the latter by running them behind barriers but still).
A shinkansen can manage 9-10tph with a highly mixed stopping patterns. Even without proper fancy dynamic signalling.
I don't think HS3 is going to need more than that.

But this is massively off topic.

 

[QueensCurve]

Based on what's been said by rail journalists and in Transport Select Committee meetings it seems apparent Network Rail are refusing to commit to timescales for electrification projects. Apparently they won't give a yes or no answer for Chat Moss being complete by the time Manchester Airport station reopens in February.

In terms of North TPE things are much worse. Apparently the main reason for the Northern/TPE ITTs not being issued this month as scheduled is because Network Rail wouldn't commit to a date for Manchester-York/Selby electrification. It now sounds like Network Rail want to add 30 months on to the North TPE timescale, which will give a completion date in 2021 unless they start work early.

It is shocking how slo electrification has become under Network Rail.

British Rail managed the complete route modernisation and electrification of 200 route miles from Weaver Junction to Glasgow between 1970 and May 1974. Getting on for 400 route miles of the East Coast network was electrified between 1986 and 1991 (on time and under budget).

The go-ahead for the "Northern Triangle Electrification" came in 2009, but so far only Manchester to Parkside has been completed. AS of Saturday, the only wire on the St Helens route at Wigan is the common return on one track. The project is dogged not only with delays but with at least one significant accident.

What is going on?

 

[HSTEd]

They are doing it "properly" - remember the now dominant narrative that Mk 3 electrification equipment is entirely worthless.
Gold plating takes ridiculous amounts of time and money.

 

[AM9]

They are doing it "properly" - remember the now dominant narrative that Mk 3 electrification equipment is entirely worthless.
Gold plating takes ridiculous amounts of time and money.

Maybe the North-West should have been initiated with miles and miles of flimsy headspan knitting, just like the privileged south.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Maybe the North-West should have been initiated with miles and miles of flimsy headspan knitting, just like the privileged south.

Is it likely we'll ever see the headspans replaced with something more substantial?

 

[infobleep]

From the bbc wbsite
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-30531457
I wonder if this will also delay cross rail

What about Cross Rail 2. There was another signal failure around Wimbledon this morning leading to cancellations and delays of around 20 minutes. I don't know if it related to the new cross over or existing infrastructure.

I believe some of the existing is life expired. There Does seem to be an increase in signalling issues in recent times. I don't think it's just that I'm noticing them.

 

[aylesbury]

Better it is done properly and not like the East Coast constant probs with wiring down frequently.If it is rushed over the Pennines problems with wind related downtimes and icing on the highest levels will surely follow.The time will go quickly and suddenly everything will be ready ,the comments about the south are not required as investment is spread all over the country.

 

[AM9]

Is it likely we'll ever see the headspans replaced with something more substantial?

The MML might get some improvements what with the rise in linespeed to 110/125, and the extension of wiring to Nottingham etc. ready for EM trains expresses. Similarly, the ECML could do better when the 801s start running. The GEML has already had an upgrade, all the other lines are either low speed or relatively new with less problems to date.

 

[Elecman]

It is shocking how slo electrification has become under Network Rail.

British Rail managed the complete route modernisation and electrification of 200 route miles from Weaver Junction to Glasgow between 1970 and May 1974. Getting on for 400 route miles of the East Coast network was electrified between 1986 and 1991 (on time and under budget).

The go-ahead for the "Northern Triangle Electrification" came in 2009, but so far only Manchester to Parkside has been completed. AS of Saturday, the only wire on the St Helens route at Wigan is the common return on one track. The project is dogged not only with delays but with at least one significant accident.

What is going on?

Don't forget that in the early 70s they were working off proper wiring trains not baskets attached to jcb's until the 'ealth an safety mob ruled them to be totally unsafe. I never heard of anyone actually falling off one especially if it was fitted with a correct human wired restraint system

 

[Chris125]

The go-ahead for the "Northern Triangle Electrification" came in 2009, but so far only Manchester to Parkside has been completed. AS of Saturday, the only wire on the St Helens route at Wigan is the common return on one track. The project is dogged not only with delays but with at least one significant accident.

What is going on?

IIRC the North West Triangle scheme was delayed by the change in government and it's spending review, and it also relies heavily on the release of units from Thameslink which only now are becoming available. No doubt inexperience has played a part too.

 

[northwichcat]

Feeling in my bones (not specific knowledge) would be ITT published midnight or 9am tommorow.

Doesn't look like that happened.

Maybe the feeling in your bones was a result of spending too much time on Merseyrail Pacers

 

[HSTEd]

Don't forget that in the early 70s they were working off proper wiring trains not baskets attached to jcb's until the 'ealth an safety mob ruled them to be totally unsafe. I never heard of anyone actually falling off one especially if it was fitted with a correct human wired restraint system

Someone was paralysed during the ECML project because a cable broke under tension and kicked them off the train - they landed with their back across a rail with the predictable result.
Apparently they ended up with a desk job at the York planning office.
I suppose a safety rail that could be clipped onto would have prevented that though.

Maybe the North-West should have been initiated with miles and miles of flimsy headspan knitting, just like the privileged south.

Which is pretty much identical in terms of 'uptime'?
These incidents are so rare that they cannot possibly overcome the benefits of the headspans in terms of project costings and the like.

 

[AM9]

Which is pretty much identical in terms of 'uptime'?
These incidents are so rare that they cannot possibly overcome the benefits of the headspans in terms of project costings and the like.

Even with the best maintained OHLE, misalignment of the conductor wire through lateral movement or insufficient tension is the most likely cause of dewirement. Headspans can introduce movement of adjacent conductor wires when a train passes at high speed that would be less likely on wires where each conductor and catenary wire is supported by individual registration and cantilever arms respectively.
The issue with headspans is that if there is a single case of a pantograph getting above the contact wire at any sort of speed, there is a high chance of all wiring supported by the headspan being out of service. Not necessarily that much of a problem on twin track where the possession to fix it would probably close the other line anyway, however, when it involves a four track stretch, then it usually means that a major route is completely blocked. So in terms of delays per incident, the impact can be much worse than with individual masts or gantry span wiring.

 

[Class377/5]

IIRC the North West Triangle scheme was delayed by the change in government and it's spending review, and it also relies heavily on the release of units from Thameslink which only now are becoming available. No doubt inexperience has played a part too.

Units have been released from Thameslink in line with what was planned. Simple fact of the delay is due to government change then NR and is contractors inexperience causing problems.

 

[infobleep]

Units have been released from Thameslink in line with what was planned. Simple fact of the delay is due to government change then NR and is contractors inexperience causing problems.

Have the government admitted that their checking of costs delayed the project? I mean Labour said there was no money so no wonder the Conservatives wanted to check everything.

 

[WatcherZero]

They froze all capital expenditure for months after coming to power. Lot of projects delayed.

 

[infobleep]

They froze all capital expenditure for months after coming to power. Lot of projects delayed.

I've seen the similar things happen at local government level too.

I wonder if doing that enabled the Conservative government to save money somewhere where they otherwise would not have done so. If so then the costs and issues in delaying the projects will have been financially worth it overall.

 

[aylesbury]

Report on South Today this evening that it will happen hopefully by 2017 given a following wind and a great deal of luck!Seems as the whole programme is in disarray with inexperienced contractors ,NR not sure of what it is doing and a general case of hopeless direction.Not a very good advert for the new NR or their choice of contractors if this lot had been around in the old days we would not have the WCML and other lines.

 

[HSTEd]

Even with the best maintained OHLE, misalignment of the conductor wire through lateral movement or insufficient tension is the most likely cause of dewirement. Headspans can introduce movement of adjacent conductor wires when a train passes at high speed that would be less likely on wires where each conductor and catenary wire is supported by individual registration and cantilever arms respectively.
The issue with headspans is that if there is a single case of a pantograph getting above the contact wire at any sort of speed, there is a high chance of all wiring supported by the headspan being out of service. Not necessarily that much of a problem on twin track where the possession to fix it would probably close the other line anyway, however, when it involves a four track stretch, then it usually means that a major route is completely blocked. So in terms of delays per incident, the impact can be much worse than with individual masts or gantry span wiring.

Yes, but the incident is so rare that it is not worth the additional capital cost and complexity of the gantry solution.

 

[WatcherZero]

I wonder if doing that enabled the Conservative government to save money somewhere where they otherwise would not have done so. If so then the costs and issues in delaying the projects will have been financially worth it overall.

Freezing something that's already been approved and work had begun (at least at design stage) for six months rarely saves money if the project is subsequently approved again.

Look at the hundreds of millions extra it cost because of their double U-turn on Carrier cats and traps. Cancelling Nimrod after it £3.8bn had been spent and had already been completed and ready for service (going so far as to actually crush the airframes) then 3 years later deciding you do need maritime patrol aircraft afterall and need to spend over a billion buying it from an American manufacturer.

 

[HSTEd]

Apart from the fact that the minister responsible was so embarassed to have American squadrons covering for the absent Nimrod fleet that he panic-buyed 30-year old airframes from the Americans second hand when 18 months later he could have had brand new P-8s off the end of the USN production line.

 

[AM9]

Apart from the fact that the minister responsible was so embarassed to have American squadrons covering for the absent Nimrod fleet that he panic-buyed 30-year old airframes from the Americans second hand when 18 months later he could have had brand new P-8s off the end of the USN production line.

U-turns in the Defence world dwarf all transport shilly-shallying. That would be well OT here but maybe the subject of another thread.

 

[infobleep]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-31610849

Great Western electrification scheme 'one year behind schedule'

Plans to modernise railways in the Thames Valley are a year behind schedule after they proved to be "dramatically more expensive" than first thought.

The predicted cost to transform the old Great Western route has climbed from £640m to £1.74bn, the BBC has learned.

Senior industry executives have said the plans to complete the work by the end of 2016 will not be met.

Network Rail said work was "progressing well" but schedules could change.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That very much sounds like a delay rather than a cancellation.

However, considering this is being done under a government (that at least claims to be) implementing austerity, regardless of whatever happens at the next election I find it unlikely much will be cut.

That being said, it's not totally impossible that a new Labour transport minister might deem electrification to be of a lower priority.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The major boost on electrification - NW Triangle / GW etc was a Labour achievement under Lord Adonis - a shame it has not been delivered to time , - but ..........

 

[infobleep]

That very much sounds like a delay rather than a cancellation.

However, considering this is being done under a government (that at least claims to be) implementing austerity, regardless of whatever happens at the next election I find it unlikely much will be cut.

That being said, it's not totally impossible that a new Labour transport minister might deem electrification to be of a lower priority.

Given that it's progressing well, I doubt Labour would do anything to change it.