Potentially massive delays in electrification program

[northwichcat]

Based on what's been said by rail journalists and in Transport Select Committee meetings it seems apparent Network Rail are refusing to commit to timescales for electrification projects. Apparently they won't give a yes or no answer for Chat Moss being complete by the time Manchester Airport station reopens in February.

In terms of North TPE things are much worse. Apparently the main reason for the Northern/TPE ITTs not being issued this month as scheduled is because Network Rail wouldn't commit to a date for Manchester-York/Selby electrification. It now sounds like Network Rail want to add 30 months on to the North TPE timescale, which will give a completion date in 2021 unless they start work early.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Based on what's been said by rail journalists and in Transport Select Committee meetings it seems apparent Network Rail are refusing to commit to timescales for electrification projects. Apparently they won't give a yes or no answer for Chat Moss being complete by the time Manchester Airport station reopens in February.

This being the case, it is an utter disgrace and a sad reflection of the supposed professionalism of Network Rail.

 

[pablo]

Well, at least they are probably being honest. I find my biggest problem is getting contractors and clients to envisage all the minor niggles, problems, rework, delay, usw that make up a realistic programme. In selling the job, they ignore all that, (or, are incapable of thinking of them) and so produce unrealistic promises (programmes) that are then enshrined in contracts. During the course of the contract they deny the obvious until they can deny it no longer; because they ARE LATE. And, then come the claims for over-run, because it wasn't their fault. I hear the GW electrification is in trouble? Deja vue?

Seems like someone in NR is digging their heals in. Bravo!

 

[fgwrich]

Well, at least they are probably being honest. I find my biggest problem is getting contractors and clients to envisage all the minor niggles, problems, rework, delay, usw that make up a realistic programme. In selling the job, they ignore all that, (or, are incapable of thinking of them) and so produce unrealistic promises (programmes) that are then enshrined in contracts. During the course of the contract they deny the obvious until they can deny it no longer; because they ARE LATE. And, then come the claims for over-run, because it wasn't their fault. I hear the GW electrification is in trouble? Deja vue?

Seems like someone in NR is digging their heals in. Bravo!

Very much that and the lack of electrification in the UK for many years has lead to a lack of qualified engineers to design and work on such complex projects. Then we go and design and text a new type of OHLE which is more complex to install and still requires testing - have they finished the GWML OLHE at High Marnham Yet? Wasn't it Balfour Beatty who were bringing engineers over from Europe to try and help our Electrification programs?

3 Days & Nights in a row I've passed Swindon in the past week and little seems to move out of the NR depot, with little sign of any progress past Steventon other than a few scrapes in a few places and new bridges under construction. I can feel that slipping further!

 

[Chris125]

Then we go and design and text a new type of OHLE which is more complex to install and still requires testing - have they finished the GWML OLHE at High Marnham Yet?

Erected and now being removed - https://www.flickr.com/photos/108904076@N07/15683980958/

 

[Blamethrower]

As with many industries, if you don't keep the skills up to date, then you have to import at great cost.

I find the crossrail tunneling and hs2 academies to be a step in the right direction, it's all well and good wanting to invest in infrastructure but you have to have the skills in the country to begin with, or else it's another cost to add to the "outsourcing" budget.

I work in IT, it's the same, not enough local resources, too much outsourcing. In my line of work, anyone can do what I do, they just need a bit of training. I am training a new guy up right now, all you need is a capable person, willing to learn. Can't imagine OHLE being THAT difficult to learn.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, at least they are probably being honest. I find my biggest problem is getting contractors and clients to envisage all the minor niggles, problems, rework, delay, usw that make up a realistic programme. In selling the job, they ignore all that, (or, are incapable of thinking of them) and so produce unrealistic promises (programmes) that are then enshrined in contracts. During the course of the contract they deny the obvious until they can deny it no longer; because they ARE LATE. And, then come the claims for over-run, because it wasn't their fault. I hear the GW electrification is in trouble? Deja vue?
Seems like someone in NR is digging their heals in. Bravo!

NR was not honest to accept £4 billion of electrification work in CP5 against the milestones and costs quoted.
It is 100% under their control to cost, plan and roll out the programme.
For some of it (GW, NW) they have already had 5 years' planning time to build resources and let contracts.
I can't think of a programme that is more important to the development of the railway, and needs the highest priority.
Currently, they don't seem to be able to achieve the electrification rates that BR achieved on the WCML and ECML wiring, despite all the fancy construction equipment they have bought.

 

[pablo]

Is it being done by NR or their Contractors?

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently, they don't seem to be able to achieve the electrification rates that BR achieved on the WCML and ECML wiring, despite all the fancy construction equipment they have bought.

Of course for those electrifications, either trains were diverted out of the way for days, weeks, months at a time, or the teams worked with trains still running. I've seen pictures of blokes stringing up the wires on the ECML whilst HSTs ran directly beneath them. Not acceptable today.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it being done by NR or their Contractors?

Does one absolve the main company from problems that may be caused by contractors. They still have their responsibility to ensure that project work is being carried out by nominated contractors in time agreed terms and if not, to use their responsibility to ensure project compliance is adhered to.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it being done by NR or their Contractors?

NR is in charge, lets the contracts, and pays all the bills.
It also directly owns much of the construction kit (eg the GW HOPS, though not the NW equivalent).

 

[Starmill]

This being the case, it is an utter disgrace and a sad reflection of the supposed professionalism of Network Rail.

Is it? This specifically? Is it really? I think we have known this might be the case in the back of our minds for a while.

It's when an infrastructure project isn't late in this country that everyone gets surprised. See Airport Metrolink.

I'm giving up hope that we will see any of the improvements delivered that have been in planning for a while now. Until the Ordsall Chord has been commissioned for use by trains, I remain doubtful we will ever see the benefits of the Northern Hub.

When was the line from Ordsall Lane to Deansgate supposed to close for work on the Chord? Soon after the reopening of Manchester Airport?

 

[snowball]

When was the line from Ordsall Lane to Deansgate supposed to close for work on the Chord? Soon after the reopening of Manchester Airport?

April I think.

 

[Aictos]

I blame the delays at the door of the DfT, if we had a rolling programme of electrification over the 13 years that Labour was in power once the Conservatives came to power they could have continued it.

For example, it would have meant a easy supply of skilled engineers well versed on electrifying the railway although it would have have depended on the DfT pulling their finger out and ordering EMUs to run on the new electric lines.

Remember DfT are ultimately responsible for the purse strings not NWR.

 

[northwichcat]

I blame the delays at the door of the DfT, if we had a rolling programme of electrification over the 13 years that Labour was in power once the Conservatives came to power they could have continued it.

But when the Coalition took over they put an immediate halt on any progress on the North West/Thames Valley electrification for 18 months while they did a spending review. Until they completed that there was no guarantee of a single mile of track being electrified so we had 18 months of potential engineers not being trained despite electrification plans put in place by the previous government.

 

[DarloRich]

This being the case, it is an utter disgrace and a sad reflection of the supposed professionalism of Network Rail.

Or, perhaps, a reflection of professionalism in being honest and explaining why a project milestone can not be achieved. It is always best not to enter into commitments (especially those imposed by a less than experienced “sponsor” or third party) until you are certain (as far as possible) that they can be met.

Is it not better to say now that a date can’t be achieved rather than promise the earth and fail in the delivery?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Or, perhaps, a reflection of professionalism in being honest and explaining why a project milestone can not be achieved. It is always best not to enter into commitments (especially those imposed by a less than experienced “sponsor” or third party) until you are certain (as far as possible) that they can be met.

Is it not better to say now that a date can’t be achieved rather than promise the earth and fail in the delivery?

Or one of my favourite sayings: "Under promise and over deliver NEVER Over promise and under deliver"

 

[Taunton]

As the schedule was for straightforward work which mainstream contractors would be familiar with, can we have an explanation of just what the actual issues are that are holding things up.

I travel down the GW every few months and really am surprised at the lack of progress.

 

[northwichcat]

Or one of my favourite sayings: "Under promise and over deliver NEVER Over promise and under deliver"

Like Manchester Metrolink who suffered some severe delays for initial projects but now give target dates which are practically impossible to miss?

 

[edwin_m]

I blame the delays at the door of the DfT, if we had a rolling programme of electrification over the 13 years that Labour was in power once the Conservatives came to power they could have continued it.

For example, it would have meant a easy supply of skilled engineers well versed on electrifying the railway although it would have have depended on the DfT pulling their finger out and ordering EMUs to run on the new electric lines.

Remember DfT are ultimately responsible for the purse strings not NWR.

Not wanting to get political, by the time Labour came to power in 1997 there had been no significant electrification since the completion of the ECML in 1991. So in practice the skills and knowhow would have disappeared by then, not helped by the number of senior and knowledgeable people who took redundancy/retirement during privatisation, and the lack of interest on the part of Railtrack in retaining any sort of skill or knowledge about the assets they were responsible for.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Like Manchester Metrolink who suffered some severe delays for initial projects but now give target dates which are practically impossible to miss?

True - there is balance. But my boss knows if I tried to do this. The DfT really should be able to distinguish between the two.

The ECML iirc was about 1 year ahead of schedule.

 

[ianhr]

But when the Coalition took over they put an immediate halt on any progress on the North West/Thames Valley electrification for 18 months while they did a spending review. Until they completed that there was no guarantee of a single mile of track being electrified so we had 18 months of potential engineers not being trained despite electrification plans put in place by the previous government.

There will be another election next May and so it is almost certain that the same thing will happen again and work will be halted for another 18 months.

As far as I am aware no wiring contracts have been let beyond Edge Hill-Earlestown/Wigan and GW mainline to Bristol (and possibly Cardiff?).
It is my bet that there will be no more electrification beyond these schemes for which work is already under way and rolling stock earmarked.

Ordsall-Preston-Blackpool, TPE North and MML may never happen and the North of England will be expected to carry on with clapped out DMUs and like it or lump it. They have had ~2 years now to get started on the easy part of TPE East (Neville Hill-Colton Jct/Selby) and NOTHING has happened.

The exception is of course Scotland where the Paisley Canal, Cumbernauld and Whifflet lines have been quietly converted to EMU operation on time within budget and with no fuss whatsoever, and contracts have now been let for Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk.

I suspect that NR are inherently conservative, over cautious, risk averse and deeply committed to the minimalist thinking that prevailed in the industry from the late 1980s until the past few years and they cannot adjust to the recent (post A. Adonis) change of heart at DfT. I agree with others that the run down of skills during the Major and Blair Governments, along with privatisation and "lets use DMUs for EVERYTHING we can get away with" has not helped. Remember that only a few years ago they were considering DE-WIRING the ECML north of Newcastle and even now there are parts of the electrified network that see minimal or even no use (ECML north of Newcastle 1 tph? and Stockport-Hazel Grove 0!).

 

[Aictos]

Had 13 years of getting some electrification done, I mean like basic infill schemes which would have helped increased chances of further electrification being done.

Granted the Liberal Conservatives put a block on any work due to their review BUT the last government had from 1997 to 2012 to do SOMETHING.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not wanting to get political, by the time Labour came to power in 1997 there had been no significant electrification since the completion of the ECML in 1991.

Agreed -so weird that quite a lot got done under Maggie - and virtually zero under Major/Blair/Brown. ALL political parties share some blame - railways are just not sexy.

There will be another election next May and so it is almost certain that the same thing will happen again and work will be halted for another 18 months.

As far as I am aware no wiring contracts have been let beyond Edge Hill-Earlestown/Wigan and GW mainline to Bristol (and possibly Cardiff?).
It is my bet that there will be no more electrification beyond these schemes for which work is already under way and rolling stock earmarked.

Ordsall-Preston-Blackpool, TPE North and MML may never happen and the North of England will be expected to carry on with clapped out DMUs and like it or lump it. They have had ~2 years now to get started on the easy part of TPE East (Neville Hill-Colton Jct/Selby) and NOTHING has happened.

I pray to God that you are wrong.

The exception is of course Scotland where the Paisley Canal, Cumbernauld and Whifflet lines have been quietly converted to EMU operation on time within budget and with no fuss whatsoever, and contracts have now been let for Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk.

I suspect that NR are inherently conservative, over cautious, risk averse and deeply committed to the minimalist thinking that prevailed in the industry from the late 1980s until the past few years and they cannot adjust to the recent (post A. Adonis) change of heart at DfT. I agree with others that the run down of skills during the Major and Blair Governments, along with privatisation and "lets use DMUs for EVERYTHING we can get away with" has not helped.

Agreed - ALL political parties share some blame.

Remember that only a few years ago they were considering DE-WIRING the ECML north of Newcastle and even now there are parts of the electrified network that see minimal or even no use (ECML north of Newcastle 1 tph? and Stockport-Hazel Grove 0!).

I pray to God that you are wrong.

Had 13 years of getting some electrification done, I mean like basic infill schemes which would have helped increased chances of further electrification being done.

Granted the Liberal Conservatives put a block on any work due to their review BUT the last government had from 1997 to 2012 to do SOMETHING.

Exactly - and it is unfair to say they were fixing privatization botch up or concentrating on WCRM.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But when the Coalition took over they put an immediate halt on any progress on the North West/Thames Valley electrification for 18 months while they did a spending review. Until they completed that there was no guarantee of a single mile of track being electrified so we had 18 months of potential engineers not being trained despite electrification plans put in place by the previous government.

The NW/GW review took 6 months, with the re-approvals coming in slabs from Dec 2010 onwards (first Crossrail to Maidenhead, then NW and GW to Oxford/Newbury, then on to Bristol and then Cardiff).
TP was approved in Nov 2011 and the rest in the 2012 HLOS.
I don't expect NR actually stopped planning work, but they couldn't let contracts.

 

[northwichcat]

There will be another election next May and so it is almost certain that the same thing will happen again and work will be halted for another 18 months.

Ordsall-Preston-Blackpool, TPE North and MML may never happen and the North of England will be expected to carry on with clapped out DMUs and like it or lump it. They have had ~2 years now to get started on the easy part of TPE East (Neville Hill-Colton Jct/Selby) and NOTHING has happened.

Note that the North West electrification minus Bolton-Wigan and Oxenholme-Windermere was announced before the last election, so both Labour and the Conservatives should approve of that remaining.

 

[Starmill]

Rolling stock has been committed for Dunblane/Alloa services too hasn't it? I think it's safer to say the impetus is there in Scotland - the wires will go up.

 

[northwichcat]

The NW/GW review took 6 months, with the re-approvals coming in slabs from Dec 2010 onwards (first Crossrail to Maidenhead, then NW and GW to Oxford/Newbury, then on to Bristol and then Cardiff).
TP was approved in Nov 2011 and the rest in the 2012 HLOS.
I don't expect NR actually stopped planning work, but they couldn't let contracts.

Note that NW electrification was given the green light months in advance of Thameslink, which left everyone (probably including Network Rail) wondering whether it would be 319s running under the new wires in the NW.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The worry is that politics is moving faster than Network Rail is putting the wires up.
From 2011, DfT has been prepared to authorise raft after raft of electrification, mainly as a way of kick-starting a stagnant economy and demonstrating large-scale infrastructure investment.
If NR had made a stonking success of the early schemes, I'm sure even more would have been authorised.
As it is, the back-pedalling has started, with delays and cost overruns.
It would be tragic if DfT lost confidence in NR's capability to deliver.
Those of us with long memories know how easy it is for government to turn the tap off as well as on.
I doubt if the Tories would go back on approved schemes in the next government, but Labour might take a different view of priorities where work on the ground has not started.
Both shades of government will want to cut the ribbons on completed electrification schemes during the next parliament.
But Network Rail can't tell them when.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The worry is that politics is moving faster than Network Rail is putting the wires up.
From 2011, DfT has been prepared to authorise raft after raft of electrification, mainly as a way of kick-starting a stagnant economy and demonstrating large-scale infrastructure investment.
If NR had made a stonking success of the early schemes, I'm sure even more would have been authorised.
As it is, the back-pedalling has started, with delays and cost overruns.
It would be tragic if DfT lost confidence in NR's capability to deliver.
Those of us with long memories know how easy it is for government to turn the tap off as well as on.
I doubt if the Tories would go back on approved schemes in the next government, but Labour might take a different view of priorities where work on the ground has not started.
Both shades of government will want to cut the ribbons on completed electrification schemes during the next parliament.
But Network Rail can't tell them when.

I just have to agree - in this instance (electrification) I think NR holds most of the blame.