Potential South London improvement ideas?

[brad465]

Wholeheartedly agree with moving freight out of London Z2/3. My ideal would be an orbital route paralleling the M25, but I'd settle for a deep freight tunnel from Ripple Lane to Wembley (and maybe on to Acton). Freight means no stations, no stations means you can go deeper, and electric freight means ventilation is easier; only real concern is gradients up to the yards.

Taking interest from this post in the North London improvement ideas, here's what I'd suggest for keeping as much freight out of South London as possible:

-Build a spur from the Grain branch towards Higham.
-Upgrade capacity on the Medway Valley line, Tonbridge-Redhill line and North Downs' line
-Providing a Redhill avoiding line that freight could use to get between the latter two.

Freight to Allington (from Allington could reverse at Hoo Jct), Hoo Junction and to/from Dollands Moor that's heading west could use this route all the way to Reading (or Guildford for Woking stuff), then either go onto Reading-Basingstoke line (Eastleigh/Southampton), B&H (Quarries) or onward to Didcot, which many of these do already. The only freight this wouldn't work for is the Wembley/Willesden and Angerstein Wharf stuff, which is in London. Another challenge is a Redhill avoiding line for freight would be very difficult to build: a flyover lacks space; a tunnel would clash with the Quarry lines.

 

[JonathanH]

Providing a Redhill avoiding line that freight could use to get between the latter two.

The line from Redhill to Reading doesn’t strike me as being particularly suitable for freight traffic without development, nor does it seem to get raised in freight strategies.

 

[Zomboid]

It's not especially useful for freight with the way it connects to the rest of the network. But perhaps with the fantasy flyover it would be.

 

[stssts1985]

Where is the freight that goes across the South London line predominantly going to and from?

I know in Holland they have a dedicated freight line so it bypasses their passenger rail.

 

[JonathanH]

Where is the freight that goes across the South London line predominantly going to and from?

Definitely not places that could be easily reached via Guildford without affecting other freight flows from Southampton.

A look at RTT for Denmark Hill suggests a wide range of different destinations south, west, north and indeed east of London.

 

[321362]

Where is the freight that goes across the South London line predominantly going to and from?

I know in Holland they have a dedicated freight line so it bypasses their passenger rail.

Dollands Moor, Angerstein Wharf and Hoo Junction among others

 

[NorthKent1989]

Lately I’ve seen more and more 5 car Class 376’s at Victoria working the Bexleyheath line to Gravesend, these can only be five car formations, they only clear 10 cars if the service is booked to run non stop between Lewisham and Victoria, as more networkers are withdrawn new stock to run 4/8 cars will have to be made specifically for the Victoria routes unless they these routes will be the last ones to have Networkers working them.

 

[stssts1985]

Lately I’ve seen more and more 5 car Class 376’s at Victoria working the Bexleyheath line to Gravesend, these can only be five car formations, they only clear 10 cars if the service is booked to run non stop between Lewisham and Victoria, as more networkers are withdrawn new stock to run 4/8 cars will have to be made specifically for the Victoria routes unless they these routes will be the last ones to have Networkers working them.

Do you ever see 376 working Brixton Beckenham junction line? I don't think I've ever got anything other than an 8 car networker?

I was also wondering why southern don't operate more services up to Watford junctions - they are very well used even off peak. They used to run some peaktome Sheppard's bush terminators..I wonder if the issue is capacity north of willsden as believe they share this same lines as London Northwestern.

 

[MatthewE707]

Do you ever see 376 working Brixton Beckenham junction line? I don't think I've ever got anything other than an 8 car networker?

I've never seen one on Victoria - Orpington services, but they seem to work all the morning peak Blackfriars - Beckenham Junction services now.

 

[Mattplans]

I've never seen one on Victoria - Orpington services, but they seem to work all the morning peak Blackfriars - Beckenham Junction services now.

Do you know if 707s are cleared to work this route? And could you use SDO if in 10 car form. Although Vic is very much the inferior terminus and since there’s more demand in the London Bridge direction I understand they’d never be on that route during peaks

 

[MatthewE707]

Do you know if 707s are cleared to work this route? And could you use SDO if in 10 car form. Although Vic is very much the inferior terminus and since there’s more demand in the London Bridge direction I understand they’d never be on that route during peaks

No idea, I'm afraid. I've certainly never seen either of those happen before, though.

 

[brad465]

Do you know if 707s are cleared to work this route? And could you use SDO if in 10 car form. Although Vic is very much the inferior terminus and since there’s more demand in the London Bridge direction I understand they’d never be on that route during peaks

707s are cleared between Beckenham Jct and Petts Wood, as they have been on late night diversions when engineering work has shut Hayes; these trains were diverted to Bromley South and either terminated there and ran empty to Grove Park/Slade Green via Orpington, or terminated at Orpington. Even without the platform length situation, Victoria/Blackfriars' routes are out of the way of 707s' normal operating turf so will be an operational inconvenience, especially if Victoria-based drivers don't sign the traction.

 

[mr_jrt]

Regarding the earlier suggestions about reworking the termini, I'd heartily recommend this old article:

London's Railways - Planning For Peace - A London Inheritance

Around this time of year, a number of London stations are in the news for the considerable amount of work that is on-going for rebuilding, the creation of new lines and what always seems to be the inevitable overrunning engineering works. The work at London Bridge and for Crossrail being just...

alondoninheritance.com

Lots of stuff about the pre-and-post-war planning that proposed much of what was suggested.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Taking interest from this post in the North London improvement ideas, here's what I'd suggest for keeping as much freight out of South London as possible:

-Build a spur from the Grain branch towards Higham.
-Upgrade capacity on the Medway Valley line, Tonbridge-Redhill line and North Downs' line
-Providing a Redhill avoiding line that freight could use to get between the latter two.

Freight to Allington (from Allington could reverse at Hoo Jct), Hoo Junction and to/from Dollands Moor that's heading west could use this route all the way to Reading (or Guildford for Woking stuff), then either go onto Reading-Basingstoke line (Eastleigh/Southampton), B&H (Quarries) or onward to Didcot, which many of these do already. The only freight this wouldn't work for is the Wembley/Willesden and Angerstein Wharf stuff, which is in London. Another challenge is a Redhill avoiding line for freight would be very difficult to build: a flyover lacks space; a tunnel would clash with the Quarry lines.

Is there a capacity problem on either the Medway Valley line or between Tonbridge and Redhill? My very best wishes to whoever has to work out a way of linking Tonbridge/Redhill with the North Downs line!

 

[brad465]

Is there a capacity problem on either the Medway Valley line or between Tonbridge and Redhill? My very best wishes to whoever has to work out a way of linking Tonbridge/Redhill with the North Downs line!

I suspect there is no major capacity problem at the moment, however there would be if more freight used these two routes: both of them are mostly 2-aspect signalling with long blocks, especially on the Tonbridge-Redhill section, with 3-aspect only at the end points and Maidstone West-Aylesford.

Something else that may help capacity is more facilities that prevent extensive detours due to inability to reverse. For example, earlier this week a Halling-Hoo Jct train had to go all the way via Tonbridge, Lee and Dartford, because the exit from the Colas site points south. That takes up capacity on some of the South London sections and consumes more fuel and travel time; if a reversing siding and run-round existed here to allow northbound journeys, the cost of building this would pay for itself through the shorter journeys.

Realtime Trains | 6Y86 1230 Halling Nr Colas to Hoo Junction Up Yard | 16/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 6Y86 1230 departure from Halling Nr Colas to Hoo Junction Up Yard on 16/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[SynthD]

if a reversing siding and run-round existed here to allow northbound journeys, the cost of building this would pay for itself through the shorter journeys.

But the cost and the benefit will not be felt by the same organisation. I've not seen a partnership or benefit capture for this sort of work, it would be a post-construction levy on one company?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Do you ever see 376 working Brixton Beckenham junction line? I don't think I've ever got anything other than an 8 car networker?

I’ve seen a few operate Beckenham Jnc to Blackfriars, but never from Victoria, though many years ago in the snow fall of 2010 or 2011 there was a 376 operating on the line, very odd experience.

I wonder if the 376’s will be retrofitted with selective door operation with more Networkers leaving? The 376’s are 10-12 years younger than the Networkers and they’ll likely last until the 2040s at least

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Honestly I would be surprised if this was the case, over on the Woolwich side of things pretty much most commuters have given up on SE since very few want the city this is why the EL has been rammed even off peak.

If this is the case, the right decision would be to double the Victoria to London Bridge frequency to 4 an hour and Overground it. It really needs to happen to relieve the East London Line. And Streatham Hill could do with a far more frequent service than it currently has.

Of course that would still leave Penge West and Anerley without a service to Central London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

I’ve seen a few operate Beckenham Jnc to Blackfriars, but never from Victoria, though many years ago in the snow fall of 2010 or 2011 there was a 376 operating on the line, very odd experience.

I wonder if the 376’s will be retrofitted with selective door operation with more Networkers leaving? The 376’s are 10-12 years younger than the Networkers and they’ll likely last until the 2040s at least

I did see a 376 on an Orpington service recently. There's one up train in the morning that goes to Blackfriars.

 

[brad465]

I wonder if the 376’s will be retrofitted with selective door operation with more Networkers leaving? The 376’s are 10-12 years younger than the Networkers and they’ll likely last until the 2040s at least

The 376s are already with Southeastern. If they were like the 707s, that is coming into the fleet from another operator to displace Networkers then yes SDO fitting might make sense, however fitting 376s with SDO and moving them to Victoria routes would just take them off other SE routes that would either have to have Networkers on more, or have shorter formations. Also, another problem with Victoria routes being longer than 8-car is there are stations where, even with SDO, trains foul junctions.

 

[SynthD]

If this is the case, the right decision would be to double the Victoria to London Bridge frequency to 4 an hour and Overground it.

“We killed off this silly service and used the path for a hugely successful Overground line. Now you’re telling me not only has it come back, but people want us to kill it for an Overground line?” (Imagined conversation)

 

[Sad Sprinter]

“We killed off this silly service and used the path for a hugely successful Overground line. Now you’re telling me not only has it come back, but people want us to kill it for an Overground line?” (Imagined conversation)

That’s not the Victoria to London Bridge service I’m talking about. You’re thinking of the old one. And it wasn’t actually that silly a service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I see the SL15 Superloop bus route consultation has been released.

As several posters have mentioned cross South London links I thought it would be relevant to this topic.

It’ll run from Eltham Station to Clapham Junction pretty much via the South Circular, will miss out Brixton and due to the low bridge at Tulse Hill it’ll be single decker

Personally it’s a missed opportunity firstly it should start at Woolwich then on to Eltham stopping only at QE Hospital, it should then join the 122 and follow that as far as Lewisham then onto Catford, where it would then follow the 202 as far as Sydenham Hill/Croxted Road then follow the 3 to Brixton and onto Clapham Junction ran as a double decker route

If this is the case, the right decision would be to double the Victoria to London Bridge frequency to 4 an hour and Overground it. It really needs to happen to relieve the East London Line. And Streatham Hill could do with a far more frequent service than it currently has.

Of course that would still leave Penge West and Anerley without a service to Central London.

The LB to Vic inner South London line was such a handy link, a shame it got scrapped in light of the ELL extension

 

[cle]

Eltham to Clapham sounds relatively useless, curious to see the uptake.

Victoria - Streatham Hill - London Bridge is another looping option, if there were paths, why not. Gives more inner service and keeps things away from Norwood/Croydon!

 

[stssts1985]

see the SL15 Superloop bus route consultation has been released.

I saw this too. An express bus is a good idea, having recently come home in an evening to Brixton hill from both Lewisham and catford there is no nice route. An overground Lewisham to Clapham via SLL With stops at Loughborough J and Brixton Nursery Lane would be far better than a bus link.

The LB to Vic inner South London line was such a handy link, a shame it got scrapped in light of the ELL extension

Passenger numbers have rocketed since it became overground and connected East London the fastest growth area of the last 20 years. 4tph vrs. Yet another 2tph sub-standard suburban line when 2tph has no place on urban enviroments! It was 2 carriage from memory, the railway doesn't solely exist to take commuters into London in the morning and home in the evening - and where it does (e..g the north Kent lines) - I could be so much more.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Eltham to Clapham sounds relatively useless, curious to see the uptake.

Victoria - Streatham Hill - London Bridge is another looping option, if there were paths, why not. Gives more inner service and keeps things away from Norwood/Croydon!

That route already exists. My idea was to double it 4tph and make it part of the Overground. To relieve the Windrush Line.

 

[cle]

That route already exists. My idea was to double it 4tph and make it part of the Overground. To relieve the Windrush Line.

I don’t think it does and people are talking about different routes.

Victoria - Denmark Hill - London Bridge
Victoria - Streatham Hill - Peckham Rye - London Bridge
Victoria - Crystal Palace - London Bridge

The first is the ELL route, ostensibly - its paths anyway. Used to be 2 car, 2tph, rubbish.

The middle is the routing what I am talking about. Unserved.

The last one is active today.

I appreciate both are technically via Streatham Hill but I named it for the quirk of the routing process and the looping point. Maybe Tulse Hill would be clearer - as it doesn’t otherwise have a Victoria service.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don’t think it does and people are talking about different routes.

Victoria - Denmark Hill - London Bridge
Victoria - Streatham Hill - Peckham Rye - London Bridge
Victoria - Crystal Palace - London Bridge

The first is the ELL route, ostensibly - its paths anyway. Used to be 2 car, 2tph, rubbish.

The middle is the routing what I am talking about. Unserved.

The last one is active today.

I appreciate both are technically via Streatham Hill but I named it for the quirk of the routing process and the looping point. Maybe Tulse Hill would be clearer - as it doesn’t otherwise have a Victoria service.

Oh that route. I did it once in 2002 funnily enough. Purely by accident, never saw that service again. There seemed to be semi-regular trains along it 100 years or so ago. I've always thought there would be strong demand between Balham and Dulwich if a service ran along that line.

 

[cle]

It does open up a few more possibilities.

As you say Balham to Dulwich, plus Clapham Junction too. The E/W buses are painful.

But a few other new pairs:
Streatham Hill to London Bridge
Tulse Hill, E and N Dulwich to Victoria
Peckham to Streatham even

And as I said, avoids anything Windmill so easier to add maybe!

 

[JonathanH]

One of the problems with Tulse Hill is presumably the need to leave space in the timetable for Thameslink weekend diversions at 6tph, then at Peckham Rye the interaction with London Overground, and finally line and platform capacity at London Bridge.

Isn't line 11 at London Bridge through to Spa Road Junction effectively operated as a single line for most of the day dedicated to the quarter hourly service to and from South Bermondsey?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

One of the problems with Tulse Hill is presumably the need to leave space in the timetable for Thameslink weekend diversions at 6tph, then at Peckham Rye the interaction with London Overground, and finally line and platform capacity at London Bridge.

Isn't line 11 at London Bridge through to Spa Road Junction effectively operated as a single line for most of the day dedicated to the half hourly service to and from South Bermondsey?

The South Bermondsey service isn’t half hourly?