Potential solutions for overcrowding on the Hereford - Birmingham line?

[train_lover]

Surely a Parkway station would be better placed between Droitwich Spa and Worcester possibly where the A449 goes under the railway with a direct link to the M5 and with a frequent train service!

 

[adrock1976]

Surely a Parkway station would be better placed between Droitwich Spa and Worcester possibly where the A449 goes under the railway with a direct link to the M5 and with a frequent train service!

I seem to recall one being planned in that vicinity a while ago. Does anybody local to the area know what has happened since?

 

[VT 390]

WMT will run a half hourly service from Hereford to Birmingham. One will be a fast service and the other being a slow service.

I can't really see Worcestershire Parkway being a success myself. I feel the complete lack of will by TOCS to serve it will be it's greatest downfall. Unless WMT start running Gloucester services that go via Parkway or the wire are extended to Parkway with the cross city also being extend I just fail to see how it'll work.

I like the idea of extending cross city trains there as it would improve southern connections for cross city stations as well but where would they turn back without blocking the main line?
XC could run an extra service to Gloucester in the oppersite half hour to the Cardiff service giving Parkway a half hourly service south

 

[221129]

C could run an extra service to Gloucester in the oppersite half hour to the Cardiff service giving Parkway a half hourly service south

Using what trains ?

 

[Shrewbly]

I seem to recall one being planned in that vicinity a while ago. Does anybody local to the area know what has happened since?

IIRC the local transport plan suggested a new parkway station at Fernhill Heath between Worcester and Droitwich. As this was even further down the list of proposals than the potential re-doubling of the Stoke Works branch, I would imagine that there is very little chance of this happening!

 

[VT 390]

Using what trains ?

It could be an extension of the second Nottingham service and could use 170's displaced from the WMR franchise when they get their 196's

 

[train_lover]

It could be an extension of the second Nottingham service and could use 170's displaced from the WMR franchise when they get their 196's

I was hoping you'd say pacers

 

[VT 390]

There will be 12 x 2-car and 14 x 4-car class 196 units.

Does this mean they will operate as 4 car sets, won't this reduce the number of coaches on some services as 5 carriage sets can't be formed and 6 carriages would be to long for some platforms

 

[Class172]

I don’t know the specs of the 196s, but most stations between Birmingham and Hereford can accommodate 6 carriages if required (Colwall may be the short one?). If they have SDO then short platforms aren’t an issue.

 

[train_lover]

I don’t know the specs of the 196s, but most stations between Birmingham and Hereford can accommodate 6 carriages if required (Colwall may be the short one?). If they have SDO then short platforms aren’t an issue.

Colwall and Ledbury are both 4 car platforms

 

[VT 390]

Surely a Parkway station would be better placed between Droitwich Spa and Worcester possibly where the A449 goes under the railway with a direct link to the M5 and with a frequent train service!

I think that would be a good location for a possible future station serving the north of Worcester (only if a more frequent New Street service operates as current services are overcrowded), But the current Parkway station under construction I think is better for a Parkway as it should hopefully much better links for Cotswolds line passengers to the south and hopefully (if connections are good) allow Worcester/Malvern passengers better services to Cheltenham and Gloucester from changing from a Paddington service to the Cardiff service, instead of having to wait 2 hours for the current service.

 

[train_lover]

I think that would be a good location for a possible future station serving the north of Worcester (only if a more frequent New Street service operates as current services are overcrowded), But the current Parkway station under construction I think is better for a Parkway as it should hopefully much better links for Cotswolds line passengers to the south and hopefully (if connections are good) allow Worcester/Malvern passengers better services to Cheltenham and Gloucester from changing from a Paddington service to the Cardiff service, instead of having to wait 2 hours for the current service.

But by putting it over the A449 passengers would have the option to join a busy New Street service or join a quieter Snow Hill service. With frequent services along the Worcester Droitwich line it would be well served.

I think you are right about Worcestershire Parkway. If it's well served it'll be just fine, especially of Worcester develops the surrounding areas. However in just cannot see that the service with be good enough.

 

[VT 390]

But by putting it over the A449 passengers would have the option to join a busy New Street service or join a quieter Snow Hill service. With frequent services along the Worcester Droitwich line it would be well served.

I think you are right about Worcestershire Parkway. If it's well served it'll be just fine, especially of Worcester develops the surrounding areas. However in just cannot see that the service with be good enough.

Most passengers would probably join the fast services whether they are busy or not as proved at Droitwich and Worcester currently but when the camp hill stations open a second train per hour has been proposed to run to Moor Street via the Bordesley chords. Another solution would be to have cheaper fares valid only on Snow Hill lines.

I think if the Connections are right between North Cotsworlds and XC services are good then I think it will be okay, though I do think at least 2 trains are needed on the XC route either by the Manchester or Edinburgh services or a fourth service between Birmingham and Cheltenham. In the future when camp hill and Bordesley chords open it may be possible that a local service could terminate at the station giving better connections south for places like Bromsgrove. On the high level eventually I would like to see a half hourly service, at least between Moreton-in-Marsh to Worcester.

 

[train_lover]

Most passengers would probably join the fast services whether they are busy or not as proved at Droitwich and Worcester currently but when the camp hill stations open a second train per hour has been proposed to run to Moor Street via the Bordesley chords. Another solution would be to have cheaper fares valid only on Snow Hill lines.

I think if the Connections are right between North Cotsworlds and XC services are good then I think it will be okay, though I do think at least 2 trains are needed on the XC route either by the Manchester or Edinburgh services or a fourth service between Birmingham and Cheltenham. In the future when camp hill and Bordesley chords open it may be possible that a local service could terminate at the station giving better connections south for places like Bromsgrove. On the high level eventually I would like to see a half hourly service, at least between Moreton-in-Marsh to Worcester.

Could WMT services that terminate at Shrub Hill not run through to Parkway?

 

[VT 390]

I think if the Connections are right between North Cotsworlds and XC services are good then I think it will be okay, though I do think at least 2 trains are needed on the XC route either by the Manchester or Edinburgh services or a fourth service between Birmingham and Cheltenham. In the future when camp hill and Bordesley chords open it may be possible that a local service could terminate at the station giving better connections south for places like Bromsgrove. On the high level eventually I would like to see a half hourly service, at least between Moreton-in-Marsh to Worcester.

Could WMT services that terminate at Shrub Hill not run through to Parkway?

I did not think of that. There is nothing to stop them extending there as far as Norton Junction as this is double track and then it is only a short single track section which may require a turn back siding east of Parkway but if timetabled well may fit in the single platform between GWR services. This could provide a better service south for places like Stourbridge and Kidderminster as well.

 

[train_lover]

I did not think of that. There is nothing to stop them extending there as far as Norton Junction as this is double track and then it is only a short single track section which may require a turn back siding east of Parkway but if timetabled well may fit in the single platform between GWR services. This could provide a better service south for places like Stourbridge and Kidderminster as well.

Some WMT crew sign Gloucester so going south wouldn't be any issue

 

[VT 390]

Are there many passengers from the Cotswolds line who change at Worcester for Birmingham, if so will these passengers change at Parkway for Birmingham freeing up some capacity Worcester Foregate Street to Birmingham?

 

[SoccerHQ]

17.20 from Worcester to New Street is always rammed. Always a depressing site when a 2-3 coach turns up at that hour. If that happens I just wait for the more spacious WMR to turn up 20 minutes later tbh.

Would imagine the same issues occur in the morning commute.

 

[VT 390]

17.20 from Worcester to New Street is always rammed. Always a depressing site when a 2-3 coach turns up at that hour. If that happens I just wait for the more spacious WMR to turn up 20 minutes later tbh.

Would imagine the same issues occur in the morning commute.

What service is 20 minutes later (is that not busy as well)?

 

[train_lover]

Realistically all Herefords should be a minimum of 4 coaches. But as we all know, there's just not enough units to meet the demand.

 

[VT 390]

Realistically all Herefords should be a minimum of 4 coaches. But as we all know, there's just not enough units to meet the demand.

When WMR get their 196's they should be 4 carriages but until then what are they going to do with the 170's from Rugeley services, could some of these be added to existing services to Hereford

 

[train_lover]

When WMR get their 196's they should be 4 carriages but until then what are they going to do with the 170's from Rugeley services, could some of these be added to existing services to Hereford

Most of the spare 170s from the Rugeley work will end work working the Shrewsbury line as it is going to a 30 minute service from May.

 

[SoccerHQ]

What service is 20 minutes later (is that not busy as well)?

One around 17.45 via Kiddy, Cradley etc.

Always find plenty of room on that, 4 or 5 carriages and pretty spacious compared to the cramped one v New Street.

If I'm not in a rush to get back to Brum I always prefer to go the Snow hill route tbh.

Edit: Appears it's just before 6pm. One hour earlier is at 4.45pm.

 

[VT 390]

Even with the new fleet of 196's the there may still be overcrowding as these units will have to be shared with the Shrewsbury and Stratford-upon-Avon services.
Instead of having the 196 diesel trains on this route would it be possible to use the proposed battery version of the 350/2 that has been suggested once the 350/2's leave WMR.
This would have the benefits of:

• at least 4 coaches per service (or as the 350/2's have shorter 20m long carriages reform them in to 3 and 5 car sets which would allow 3, 5 or 6 car formations)
• Slight improvement on journey times on the electrified sections due to improved acceleration
• Less diesel trains will run in to Birmingham city centre, reducing pollution
• All the 350's being with one operator (West Midlands Trains)
• Possible improved capacity on Snow Hill lines with more 196's available for these services (if they remained with WMR)

As there could be up to 37 350/2 battery fitted units available there would be more than enough to have them operating Hereford and Shrewsbury services.
There would be brand new 196 DMU's to either operate elsewhere on the West Midlands Trains network (such as Bedford to Bletchley or Snow Hill line capacity increases) or they could move to another part of the country replacing older diesel rolling stock.
Almost all WMR services in to New Street would be electric which would mean the only diesel routes on West Midlands Trains would be the Snow Hill lines, Nuneaton to Leamington Spa and Bedford to Bletchley.
It could also potentially allow Worcester/Shrewsbury services to be extended through New Street to other destinations without more diesel units running under the wires.

 

[train_lover]

Even with the new fleet of 196's the there may still be overcrowding as these units will have to be shared with the Shrewsbury and Stratford-upon-Avon services.
Instead of having the 196 diesel trains on this route would it be possible to use the proposed battery version of the 350/2 that has been suggested once the 350/2's leave WMR.
This would have the benefits of:

• at least 4 coaches per service (or as the 350/2's have shorter 20m long carriages reform them in to 3 and 5 car sets which would allow 3, 5 or 6 car formations)
• Slight improvement on journey times on the electrified sections due to improved acceleration
• Less diesel trains will run in to Birmingham city centre, reducing pollution
• All the 350's being with one operator (West Midlands Trains)

As there could be up to 37 350/2 battery fitted units available there would be more than enough to have them operating Hereford and Shrewsbury services.
There would be brand new 196 DMU's to either operate elsewhere on the West Midlands Trains network (such as Bedford to Bletchley or Snow Hill line capacity increases) or they could move to another part of the country replacing older diesel rolling stock.
Almost all WMR services in to New Street would be electric which would mean the only diesel routes on West Midlands Trains would be the Snow Hill lines, Nuneaton to Leamington Spa and Bedford to Bletchley.
It could also potentially allow Worcester/Shrewsbury services to be extended through New Street to other destinations without more diesel units running under the wires.

Good idea, but what should be happening is all of WMT 170s should stay at WMT to work with 172s and 196s.

 

[VT 390]

Good idea, but what should be happening is all of WMT 170s should stay at WMT to work with 172s and 196s.

The 170's are planned to leave WMR once their new trains come, it would be good for them to either go to XC to reduce overcrowding or to Northern to replace some more sprinter stock and if the 196 went with them then they could replace all their 150/1 and 155 units with some extras to strengthen overcrowded services. This would mean the only Diesel trains with WMR would be 172's (and D train on Bedford to Beltchley) which would simplify maintenance and crew training on their services.
It may be a good idea (as the 196's would be brand new) to maybe have the 196's remain with WMR to operate Stourbridge to Stratford-upon-Avon services making them all 4 carriages, in turn the 172's on this route could move to strengthen other Snow Hill line services so all services are a minimum of 3 carriages (this would mean the 170's would no longer be needed to remain with WMR) although in the long term it would be very good to have the Snow Hill lines electrified which would eventually mean the only diesel routes would be Nuneaton to Leamington Spa and Bletchley to Bedford.

 

[train_lover]

The 170's are planned to leave WMR once their new trains come, it would be good for them to either go to XC to reduce overcrowding or to Northern to replace some more sprinter stock and if the 196 went with them then they could replace all their 150/1 and 155 units with some extras to strengthen overcrowded services. This would mean the only Diesel trains with WMR would be 172's (and D train on Bedford to Beltchley) which would simplify maintenance and crew training on their services.
It may be a good idea (as the 196's would be brand new) to maybe have the 196's remain with WMR to operate Stourbridge to Stratford-upon-Avon services making them all 4 carriages, in turn the 172's on this route could move to strengthen other Snow Hill line services so all services are a minimum of 3 carriages (this would mean the 170's would no longer be needed to remain with WMR) although in the long term it would be very good to have the Snow Hill lines electrified which would eventually mean the only diesel routes would be Nuneaton to Leamington Spa and Bletchley to Bedford.

But if you look at the amount of new carriages coming in verses the amount leaving the franchise then you'll see in reality the West Midlands won't be much better off at all. That's why I say by keeping the 170s then the franchise will be much better equipped to deal with the expected boom in passengers over the next 10 year's. I'm also told that 196s will work almost exclusively on Hereford and Shrewsbury services.

 

[VT 390]

But if you look at the amount of new carriages coming in verses the amount leaving the franchise then you'll see in reality the West Midlands won't be much better off at all. That's why I say by keeping the 170s then the franchise will be much better equipped to deal with the expected boom in passengers over the next 10 year's. I'm also told that 196s will work almost exclusively on Hereford and Shrewsbury services.

If WMR used the proposed battery 350/2's on Hereford and Shrewsbury services then the 196's which would of operated these services could move to some Snow Hill line services (I suggest the Stratford-Stourbridge as these can be more self contained than the other services), then this would allow 172/2 and 172/3 services to increase in capacity by doubling up units. Then the 172/0's can work the Nuneaton to Leamington line and have 230's on the Bedford to Bletchley line.
Also as there would be more 196's than required to operate the Stourbridge to Stratford services (at 4 carriages) the extra 12 2 car 196's could take over the the Leamington to Moor Street (local service) and Leamington to Stratford routes (these would switch from Chiltern to WMR)
With this arrangement you should actually end up with a lot more capacity than there is currently.

 

[train_lover]

If WMR used the proposed battery 350/2's on Hereford and Shrewsbury services then the 196's which would of operated these services could move to some Snow Hill line services (I suggest the Stratford-Stourbridge as these can be more self contained than the other services), then this would allow 172/2 and 172/3 services to increase in capacity by doubling up units. Then the 172/0's can work the Nuneaton to Leamington line and have 230's on the Bedford to Bletchley line.
Also as there would be more 196's than required to operate the Stourbridge to Stratford services (at 4 carriages) the extra 12 2 car 196's could take over the the Leamington to Moor Street (local service) and Leamington to Stratford routes (these would switch from Chiltern to WMR)
With this arrangement you should actually end up with a lot more capacity than there is currently.

Again another very good idea. I cannot see WMT taking any of those battery 350s though. I'm under the impression that the 196s are to be built to a longer distance specification. So they will have tables in etc meaning they won't be particularly suited to the busy services on the snow hill lines.

I've always thought thay the Nuneaton to Coventry service should be extended to Stratford. Replacing the current Chiltern service.

 

[VT 390]

I'm under the impression that the 196s are to be built to a longer distance specification.

As they are planned for Birmingham to Hereford/Shrewsbury services this does not seam like the best decision as most passengers on the Hereford service either travel on the Malvern/Worcester-Birmingham section or Worcester-Hereford section meaning most journeys are under an hour and as this route is very busy it would make more sense to have more seats than to have full size tables, I think the best layout for trains on the Hereford/Shrewsbury services would be 2+2 seating with fold down tables on the back of seats, this way you still have long distance parts to the service but are fitting as many seats as possible in.