Potential rolling stock transfers to/from EMR?

[Chiltern006]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-170-updates.202522/

are 185s needed with the 171s coming over?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

or are the 185s coming over because the 171s aren't free

 

[RealTrains07]

are 185s needed with the 171s coming over?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

or are the 185s coming over because the 171s aren't free

Yes and no.


The 170s and 171s transfer to EMR is to work the regional services. Which do not include the service to and from liverpool. At least that was the plan until EMR got stuck with the liverpool route which means they need more trains on top of the 171s and 170s that are getting (or are at least meant to be) transferred which so far look like to be 185s?

 

[DDB]

are 185s needed with the 171s coming over?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

or are the 185s coming over because the 171s aren't free

Extra units are needed compared to EMR’s orginal plans as they are going to continue to operate the Liverpool-Nottingham service which was originally going to be transferred to a different franchise.

 

[ChrisC]

Yes and no.


The 170s and 171s transfer to EMR is to work the regional services. Which do not include the service to and from liverpool. At least that was the plan until EMR got stuck with the liverpool route which means they need more trains on top of the 171s and 170s that are getting (or are at least meant to be) transferred which so far look like to be 185s?

Leaving the Nottingham to Liverpool route out of this discussion, if the 171s are not going to transfer to EMR anytime soon, then quite a number of 158s or 156s will need to be retained to work regional services along with the 170s.

 

[OTRail]

Leaving the Nottingham to Liverpool route out of this discussion, if the 171s are not going to transfer to EMR anytime soon, then quite a number of 158s or 156s will need to be retained to work regional services along with the 170s.

I can see EMR finding 170s to replace them - IIRC Scotrail were originally due to return 34 units as opposed to 21. Maybe EMR could negotiate an exchange for 158s or 156s for those additional 13 units they retained.

 

[43096]

I can see EMR finding 170s to replace them - IIRC Scotrail were originally due to return 34 units as opposed to 21. Maybe EMR could negotiate an exchange for 158s or 156s for those additional 13 units they retained.

Why would ScotRail give up their 170s, that Transport Scotland have funded as additional sets?

You can’t just play fantasy fleets.

 

[Chiltern006]

could scotrail take some 175s to allow for an adequate number of SR 170s to transfer?

 

[43096]

could scotrail take some 175s to allow for an adequate number of SR 170s to transfer?

Why would they?

 

[LowLevel]

Give it a few months and come back. All we have (with a few exceptions) is a number of people on here who don't really know anything reading postings from others chucked in with some bizarre "my idea" speculation to move random fleets of trains about and then repeating them as fact whereas in actual fact the real plan is changing so regularly as to be irrelevant. All will I am sure become clear at some point.

 

[Aictos]

Why would ScotRail give up their 170s, that Transport Scotland have funded as additional sets?

You can’t just play fantasy fleets.

Just curious and you would know I expect but with the ScotRail Class 170s based at Haymarket, how many are diagrammed for the Borders service because once that gets electrified that will no doubt free up a number of SR Class 170s which they may or may not use for SR services elsewhere.

How many are used on that line I don't know but in 2019, SR were operating either Class 158s or Class 170s on the line.

 

[OTRail]

Give it a few months and come back. All we have (with a few exceptions) is a number of people on here who don't really know anything reading postings from others chucked in with some bizarre "my idea" speculation to move random fleets of trains about and then repeating them as fact whereas in actual fact the real plan is changing so regularly as to be irrelevant. All will I am sure become clear at some point.

No one said they knew anything - the whole point of speculation is to discuss ideas, regardless of how farfetched they may seem. It’s what this forum’s about...

 

[Energy]

could scotrail take some 175s to allow for an adequate number of SR 170s to transfer?

If they were going to take on 175s it would probably be to replace their aging 156s and 158s...

 

[TheBigD]

The shortfall for EMR if they don't receive the 171s is 6 x 3 car, and 10 x 2 car, so 16 units in total. Add Nottingham to Liverpool in to the mix and EMR will require an additional 12 (if they run it as double units) in service so say 14 units to allow for maintenance etc.

So potentially they are in need of a minimum of around 30 extra units (a mixture of 2 and 3 cars).

If they keep the 158's that is only 26 units so more units of some form will be required.

 

[fgwrich]

Why would ScotRail give up their 170s, that Transport Scotland have funded as additional sets?

You can’t just play fantasy fleets.

Indeed. The last operator who tried to pull off a similar move rather got their fingers burnt with this idea too. (National Express - who had planned to swap Central Trains’s Tyseley based 156 fleet for 20 of the ScotRail 158s, with 402 going base ScotRail livery).

 

[Energy]

Indeed. The last operator who tried to pull off a similar move rather got their fingers burnt with this idea too. (National Express - who had planned to swap Central Trains’s Tyseley based 156 fleet for 20 of the ScotRail 158s, with 402 going base ScotRail livery).

To be fair SWT managed to swap its 170s for 158s with TPE, its just that the 170s weren't particularly suitable at SWT due to the lack of gangway making trolley services difficult.

 

[OTRail]

Why would ScotRail give up their 170s, that Transport Scotland have funded as additional sets?

You can’t just play fantasy fleets.

Not playing fantasy fleets - in this case playing fantasy fleets would be exchanging them for the 185s or 222s...

The move would make sense given they were to be rid of those 170s in the first place as no suitable replacements were available at the time, but who knows what will happen now? As we’ve seen with the HC 360s, anything’s possible.

 

[43096]

Not playing fantasy fleets - in this case playing fantasy fleets would be exchanging them for the 185s or 222s...

The move would make sense given they were to be rid of those 170s in the first place as no suitable replacements were available at the time, but who knows what will happen now? As we’ve seen with the HC 360s, anything’s possible.

You ignored my first question as to why ScotRail would make such a swap.

 

[OTRail]

You ignored my first question as to why ScotRail would make such a swap.

170s aren’t as suitable for stoppers such as the lines in Fife compared to 156s and 158s? 170s don’t have gangways? Line speeds don’t fully justify 170 use? Lack of demand caused by Covid means not as many are required? The list goes on.

As I’ve said multiple times, it’s purely speculation. Who knows what will happen.

 

[fgwrich]

170s aren’t as suitable for stoppers such as the lines in Fife compared to 156s and 158s? 170s don’t have gangways? Line speeds don’t fully justify 170 use? Lack of demand caused by Covid means not as many are required? The list goes on.

As I’ve said multiple times, it’s purely speculation. Who knows what will happen.

You clearly haven't used the Fife Circle in Peak Hours if you think a 170 isn't suitable due to a lack of gangway... Of all the fleets ScotRail has, the 170 is the most versatile and can do anything from covering for HSTs on I7C Services to plodding along comfortably on the Fife Circle in 3/5/6 car formation with it's wide doors at 1/3 2/3 layout. There's nothing either to say that line speeds on the Fife Circle doesn't require a 170 either. Many lists can be made, and many points can easily be-debunked I'm afraid. And it still doesn't answer @43096 question.

Yes its speculation, and this perhaps proves that at times, it's pointless to speculate. What is clear though is that ScotRail / Transport Scotland certainly aren't going to give up any more 170s for any other type of unit any time soon, not least until Perth / Dundee and or Fife Electrification is completed. More so with the addition of the Leven Branch in the next year or two.

 

[Energy]

You clearly haven't used the Fife Circle in Peak Hours if you think a 170 isn't suitable due to a lack of gangway... Of all the fleets ScotRail has, the 170 is the most versatile and can do anything from covering for HSTs on I7C Services to plodding along comfortably on the Fife Circle. Many lists can be made, and many points can easily be-debunked.

Yes is speculation, and this perhaps proves that at times, it's pointless to speculate. ScotRail / Transport Scotland certainly aren't going to give up any more 170s for any other type of unit any time soon, not least until Perth / Dundee and or Fife Electrification is completed. More so with the addition of the Leven Branch soon.

I'm suprised Scotrail gave up any, its been an aspiration of theres to swap the 156s with 158, cascading the 158s by keeping the 170s would help reduce the number of 156s.

 

[NoMorePacers]

170s aren’t as suitable for stoppers such as the lines in Fife compared to 156s and 158s? 170s don’t have gangways? Line speeds don’t fully justify 170 use? Lack of demand caused by Covid means not as many are required? The list goes on.

As I’ve said multiple times, it’s purely speculation. Who knows what will happen.

You could probably cherry-pick several EMR routes and use the same argument you've used against the 170s doing Fife Circle for those routes. Either way I doubt anything will change in regards to that.

 

[OTRail]

You could probably cherry-pick several EMR routes and use the same argument you've used against the 170s doing Fife Circle for those routes. Either way I doubt anything will change in regards to that.

I doubt it will either - it was just a speculation that several people on here blew out of proportion.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So if the 171s come whats the plan as there are 8 x 4 car units and 12 x 2 car units, are they planning to take the middle cars from the 4s and add them to 8 of the 2s because they'd surely prefer to get as many of them as 3 car units wouldn't they?

 

[Wolfie]

So if the 171s come whats the plan as there are 8 x 4 car units and 12 x 2 car units, are they planning to take the middle cars from the 4s and add them to 8 of the 2s because they'd surely prefer to get as many of them as 3 car units wouldn't they?

Were there not issues when Southern tried to do that?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Were there not issues when Southern tried to do that?

That's why I ask, I can't imagine units running Windows 95 could be that difficult could they....hahaha

 

[raetiamann]

Maybe EMR could keep the 158s until the 810 are in service and then use 5 car 222s on Nottm-Liverpool?

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe EMR could keep the 158s until the 810 are in service and then use 5 car 222s on Nottm-Liverpool?

I think that the use of 222s as prime traction on the Nottingham to Liverpool route is quite unlikely.

 

[raetiamann]

Under EMT, the company expressed a desire to have 1st class on the Norwich-Liverpool. This would allow that to happen. Also Etches Park knows the sets inside out.

 

[greatvoyager]

Under EMT, the company expressed a desire to have 1st class on the Norwich-Liverpool. This would allow that to happen. Also Etches Park knows the sets inside out.

Do EMR share that desire?

 

[craigybagel]

What I've never been able to understand is how EMR were able to win the franchise bid with a rolling stock plan that required the ex Southern 171s when there was no obvious replacements for that fleet lined up - even before the decision for them to keep the Liverpool - Nottingham service made that problem even worse.