Potential Prosecution

[Gashers]

I am an 18 year old student that frequently uses trains for college. I had a valid 16-17 Saver which has expired for my second year. Some of my friends suggested changing the date on it as they had, so I did. I have been using this for a month and today I was travelling to Stevenage from Cambridge. My ticket was valid with a 16-17 Saver. However, for the first time it was scanned and came back as illegitimate. The workee sat down with my and took information and said I was already in the system as I had an offence in March when I was 17. This was because I thought I could buy a ticket on the train with cash which wasn’t allowed. The punishment for this was a £50 fine + single adult fare. The worker issued me a receipt saying that someone will be in touch however the worker didn’t answer many of my questions. I was open and cooperative with him.

My question is what will happen? Will I have to pay a fine as before or will the consequences be different?

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you saying you edited the date on your railcard? Is this what you mean by changing the date?

 

[Gashers]

Yes that is correct unfortunately.

 

[Titfield]

Oh dear that is quite a serious matter.

Take a look at this thread for advice: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tp-express-ticket-irregularity-report-altered-railcard.261686/

 

[Gashers]

Oh dear that is quite a serious matter.

Take a look at this thread for advice: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tp-express-ticket-irregularity-report-altered-railcard.261686/

Just had a look, thank you. Do you know what the outcome of a scenario like this usually ends in?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Altering a railcard, and then using it to fraudulently obtain discounted travel for a sustained period of time is a very serious matter and you should be prepared for this to end up in court. If you have friends who are doing this get them to stop now. I would buy a 16-25 Railcard at once and use this to obtain discounted travel legitimately.

The good news for you is that you are dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway who are the most pragmatic train company when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. What happens next is they will write to you, saying that you have received a report and are considering prosecuting but also asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. You must reply to this letter and I suggest you include the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. The problem is you have come to their attention before, and this is going to make it much, much harder to keep the matter out of court.

If they offer you a settlement then expect to have to pay the full Adult Anytime fare for all of the journeys made with the fraudulent railcard (i.e. since you turned 18) with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition, they will want you to pay an admin fee, typically £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered, payment in installments isn't normally allowed.

When it arrives post a copy of GTR's letter in this thread along with your draft reply and we will proof read it for you. DO redact any personal details before uploading.

Finally, if you haven't already done so you should tell your parents about this. Given the potential consequences of an altered railcard, and the fact that you have come to GTR's attention before, you might want to consider using a solicitor to assist in negotiating a settlement, either now or if your reply to GTR doesn't result in a favourable outcome.

 

[Gashers]

That’s extremely helpful, thank you. When should I expect the letter and should I start drafting a response now?

Also, the how is the full adult fare calculated? Is it through GTR only or every train purchase made since Sept 4 (When the railcard expired). Do you know how it works with flexi-seasons and how about purchasing legitimate tickets for others?

 

[Tevion539]

That’s extremely helpful, thank you. When should I expect the letter and should I start drafting a response now?

Also, the how is the full adult fare calculated? Is it through GTR only or every train purchase made since Sept 4 (When the railcard expired). Do you know how it works with flexi-seasons and how about purchasing legitimate tickets for others?

Gtr have the right to recover the fares for any journey, not just ones made with themselves. Typically the full undiscounted any time single rate, to my understanding, in both directions if you had a return. There's usually no concession made for fares already paid. They should only charge you for fares that are invalid.

 

[John R]

Gtr have the right to recover the fares for any journey, not just ones made with themselves. Typically the full undiscounted any time single rate, to my understanding, in both directions if you had a return. There's usually no concession made for fares already paid. They should only charge you for fares that are invalid.

Although GTR sometimes allow for the fare already paid, being one of the more lenient operators, it's much less likely in this instance, as there is very clear fraudulent intent. So I agree that I would expect any tickets purchased on the national rail network using a 16-17 Saver discount to attract an Anytime Single fare. That will be bad news if any longer distance journeys have been taken, where Anytime Single fares can be eyewateringly expensive.

 

[Gashers]

Although GTR sometimes allow for the fare already paid, being one of the more lenient operators, it's much less likely in this instance, as there is very clear fraudulent intent. So I agree that I would expect any tickets purchased on the national rail network using a 16-17 Saver discount to attract an Anytime Single fare. That will be bad news if any longer distance journeys have been taken, where Anytime Single fares can be eyewateringly expensive.

That’s not great news. I bought a legitimate ticket from Newmarket to Leeds with a saver card for my friend.. How do they know which journeys I have used?

 

[John R]

That’s not great news. I bought a legitimate ticket from Newmarket to Leeds with a saver card for my friend.. How do they know which journeys I have used?

The problem with committing any type of fraud is that you lay yourself open to further complications as you are seen as completely untrustworthy. So if you say "I bought it for a friend", will they believe you? Probably not imo.

Ultimately you have a choice, assuming they identify it and include it.

1. Accept any offer they make, to avoid going to court, including possibly a return journey from Newmarket to Leeds at 2 x Anytime Single of 79.70 (route: via Ely*), using current fares.

2. Try and persuade them that that journey was legit, and run the risk of them withdrawing the offer and taking you to court if they think you are trying it on.

3. Refusing the offer, and being prosecuted for the one offence

For the sake of an extra £160, I'd go with option 1.

* There is another priced fare at £134 (route: not via London). I'm really not sure how that differs from the route via Ely ticket, so let's hope that they use the cheaper one.

 

[Gashers]

The problem with committing any type of fraud is that you lay yourself open to further complications as you are seen as completely untrustworthy. So if you say "I bought it for a friend", will they believe you? Probably not imo.

Ultimately you have a choice, assuming they identify it and include it.

1. Accept any offer they make, to avoid going to court, including possibly a return journey from Newmarket to Leeds at 2 x Anytime Single of 79.70 (route: via Ely*), using current fares.

2. Try and persuade them that that journey was legit, and run the risk of them withdrawing the offer and taking you to court if they think you are trying it on.

3. Refusing the offer, and being prosecuted for the one offence

For the sake of an extra £160, I'd go with option 1.

* There is another priced fare at £134 (route: not via London). I'm really not sure how that differs from the route via Ely ticket, so let's hope that they use the cheaper one.

Okay thank you. Option 1 is definitely best. How will it work with Flexi-Season passes? I have had 2x monthly and 1x weekly for Newmarket to Cambridge since the railcard expired. Also how do they know which journeys I have been on?

 

[John R]

Okay thank you. Option 1 is definitely best. How will it work with Flexi-Season passes? I have had 2x monthly and 1x weekly for Newmarket to Cambridge since the railcard expired. Also how do they know which journeys I have been on?

Are the flexi-seasons reduced by the 16-17 saver discount? If so, I would imagine they will include the cost of the same passes with no discount.

More generally, they will look at your ticketing account (eg Trainline), and look at every journey where you have applied the discount since your card expired.

 

[Gashers]

Are the flexi-seasons reduced by the 16-17 saver discount? If so, I would imagine they will include the cost of the same passes with no discount.

More generally, they will look at your ticketing account (eg Trainline), and look at every journey where you have applied the discount since your card expired.

Okay thank you, and yes the flexi seasons are with a discount. I don’t use a trainline account, I use Greater Anglia as well as Uber. I also purchase tickets on the train with cash. Will they look into that?

 

[John R]

Okay thank you, and yes the flexi seasons are with a discount. I don’t use a trainline account, I use Greater Anglia. Will they look into that?

Yes. They will have taken details of that when you presented your ticket. Handy things online accounts - means that when you are stopped it's not just the one offence that they can see but all the previous ones.

 

[Gashers]

Yes. They will have taken details of that when you presented your ticket. Handy things online accounts - means that when you are stopped it's not just the one offence that they can see but all the previous ones.

Okay. That one was on GA, will they know about Uber and ones purchased on the train?

 

[Tevion539]

Can't speak for GTR specifically in this - I don't believe it's standard practice for companies to crawl every possible booking app. So, whilst it would be best to plan for the worst case scenario, I wouldn't be surprised if they only look at your travel history on that one account which you was caught with the invalid ticket. Just going from experiences.

 

[John R]

Okay. That one was on GA, will they know about Uber and ones purchased on the train?

Ones purchased from a ticket person on the train are very unlikely to be identified. Re Uber, they may request any information regarding someone of your name and email address from all ticket retailers, not just the one that you were using at the time you were caught. I don't know whether this is normal practice, so cannot comment how likely it is.

 

[Tevion539]

Ones purchased from a ticket person on the train are very unlikely to be identified. Re Uber, they may request any information regarding someone of your name and email address from all ticket retailers, not just the one that you were using at the time you were caught. I don't know whether this is normal practice, so cannot comment how likely it is.

From experiences I've seen first hand, people who have travelled with Trainline have only had their Trainline account investigated and maybe the toc they travelled on if an account is held with them.

 

[Gashers]

Okay that’s fine. Is it worth trying to find the minimum and maximum amount they should charge me or just take whatever they ask for?

 

[Tevion539]

Okay that’s fine. Is it worth trying to find the minimum and maximum amount they should charge me or just take whatever they ask for?

I'd say it's best. Just to give yourself an idea/reassurance of any kind.

 

[Gashers]

I'd say it's best. Just to give yourself an idea/reassurance of any kind.

Do I challenge it if they ask for more than I’m expecting?

 

[FenMan]

Do I challenge it if they ask for more than I’m expecting?

Your primary concern ought to be whether the ToC decides to make an example of you for fraudulently altering a railcard. They have the evidence to prosecute should they choose.

If they decide to be lenient and offer a financial settlement I'd be very wary of poking the bear.

 

[Tevion539]

I couldn't decide that. Based on what you've done, id personally accept whatever they offer. Even if it's 50 more than expected for instance. Any appeal as mentioned above would likely result in prosecution. Especially with the situation in mind and previously coming to their attention.

I work on board and only have so much experience from talking to my fraud dept and TiL staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

If they decide to be lenient and offer a financial settlement I'd be very wary of poking the bear.

Agreed.

 

[Gashers]

Yeah my main concern is having a criminal record, if they want extra money so be it. Is there a limit as to how much they charge? Also at what point (if any) do I get solicitors involved?

 

[TheJester]

They will also add a fee for the costs of investigating you. Usually around £200.

 

[FenMan]

Yeah my main concern is having a criminal record, if they want extra money so be it. Is there a limit as to how much they charge? Also at what point (if any) do I get solicitors involved?

A settlement offer from a TOC is not their "charge", it's their calculation of what you owe plus the costs they have incurred in investigating the matter.

As I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't poke the bear, as the risk of an offer being withdrawn and them proceeding to prosecute instead is significant.

 

[Tevion539]

They will also add a fee for the costs of investigating you. Usually around £200.

But can be as much as 100-150. It really depends on how much work they have to put in to the investigation.

 

[Gashers]

But can be as much as 100-150. It really depends on how much work they have to put in to the investigation.

So theoretically if I am cooperative and provide all information, it should make it easier for them and hopefully cheaper for me?

 

[FenMan]

So theoretically if I am cooperative and provide all information, it should make it easier for them and hopefully cheaper for me?

The other way of looking at this is to ask yourself: "What is more likely to happen if I'm uncooperative?"