Potential Northern loco-hauled services?

[The_Rail_WAy]

With the 180's soon to depart and the 142's from FGW not looking likely to arrive any time soon I have heard a distinct all be it slight possibility that northern may be put in the position that it will be introducing loco hauled services some time soon possibly with the help of Drect Rail Services, which I know seems very far fetched. Likeley to cover the Hazel-Grove-Man-Preston-Blackpool route. Example: 1 X DRS 37+5 Cargo-D mk2's+1 X DRS 37. Traction won't necessarilly be in the form of a 37 though.

To the contrary other rumours suggest that it won't happen due to high running costs and Northern will get units from the 172 cascade anyway.

This would'nt be the first time Direct Rail Services have operated passenger services on northern metals as they ran relief shuttle services from Workington - Carlisle with the help of a 37 following damage caused by the great flood in late 2009.

 

[Lampshade]

It'll never happen, the two routes that they'd be needed on are slow stopping services. The most we can hope for on Victoria - Blackpool is 2x142 and 2x150 or 150+156 on the Hazel Grove - Preston route.

 

[sprinterguy]

The Blackpool route has always been popular with the prevalent North West operator at the time for allocating unusual traction to. If Northern are going to draft in loco hauled trains as an interim measure, then it wouldn’t surprise me if it was one of the Manchester to Blackpool flows that gained them. It’s been done before, with the Regional Railways club trains in BR days and Fragonset 31s+mark 2s in around 2001. I’d think that the Victoria to Blackpool route would be the more likely candidate though.

Alternately, the Settle and Carlisle line lends itself particularly well to loco hauled trains: It’s a long distance journey with fairly long distances between station stops and a large proportion of tourist traffic who would benefit from having additional luggage space. Additionally, one end of the route ends in Carlisle at DRS’ main depot, so providing locomotives and stock would be fairly simple. I would like to see a return of the loco hauled services that plied this route during 2004.

The obstacles in the way of short term loco hauled train operation seem to be fairly large, but it’s looking likely that it’s going to be December 2011 at the earliest that Northern will receive cascaded 150s from LM. Maybe even some time in the first half of 2012 before they receive their full complement of trains.

 

[Masbroughlad]

As mentioned above Leeds - Carlisle.

Or what about Leeds - Nottingham?

 

[swt_passenger]

There almost certainly won't be a problem here, because the 180s with Northern won't leave until they are replaced.

That's what invariably happens in these cascades, the contracts for the stock going offlease get rolled over until the replacements are ready - a current example is the 442/460 changeover with SN, the 460s should have been offlease last year.

Can anyone think of a recent example where a TOC has been left in the lurch where a planned cascade has left a gap in someone's allocation for a significant period?

 

[tbtc]

Alternately, the Settle and Carlisle line lends itself particularly well to loco hauled trains: It’s a long distance journey with fairly long distances between station stops and a large proportion of tourist traffic who would benefit from having additional luggage space. Additionally, one end of the route ends in Carlisle at DRS’ main depot, so providing locomotives and stock would be fairly simple. I would like to see a return of the loco hauled services that plied this route during 2004

I reckon that's the only line which would work with loco hauled - the (York) Knaresborough - Horsforth - Leeds commuter service in the morning, the Leeds - Carlisle - Leeds return during the daytime and the commuter working back to Knaresborough in the evening were perfectly timed, allowing peak capacity on the Harrogate line plus conveniently timed day out from Leeds during the daytime. Minimal reversing, some long sections without stopping...

...whereas an "all stops" service from Blackpool to Manchester isn't going to suit loco-hauled as much.

 

[northwichcat]

I reckon that's the only line which would work with loco hauled - the (York) Knaresborough - Horsforth - Leeds commuter service in the morning, the Leeds - Carlisle - Leeds return during the daytime and the commuter working back to Knaresborough in the evening were perfectly timed, allowing peak capacity on the Harrogate line plus conveniently timed day out from Leeds during the daytime. Minimal reversing, some long sections without stopping...

The idea would be 4/5 car loco hauled sets replacing 180s until the cascaded 142s and 150s arrive - not for extra capacity. If they work Yorkshire services it should be in exchange for 4 sets of Sprinters currently used on Yorkshire services being used on the other side of Pennines.

 

[DarloRich]

I reckon that's the only line which would work with loco hauled - the (York) Knaresborough - Horsforth - Leeds commuter service in the morning, the Leeds - Carlisle - Leeds return during the daytime and the commuter working back to Knaresborough in the evening were perfectly timed, allowing peak capacity on the Harrogate line plus conveniently timed day out from Leeds during the daytime. Minimal reversing, some long sections without stopping...

...whereas an "all stops" service from Blackpool to Manchester isn't going to suit loco-hauled as much.

Agreed - it has been done before. Surely 47's rather than 37's - unlikely mind!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How about Manchester - Warrington Bank Quay - Chester- Holyhead as a route. I have done this with both steam (giving my age away again) and diesel as the power in the past, to access the ferry at Holyhead.

If First TPE can run from Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh, this route should be allowed.

 

[northwichcat]

How about Manchester - Warrington Bank Quay - Chester- Holyhead as a route. I have done this with both steam (giving my age away again) and diesel as the power in the past, to access the ferry at Holyhead.

It wouldn't be of much use Northern providing a service on ATW & Virgin routes when they'll have to short form services elsewhere.

If First TPE can run from Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh, this route should be allowed.

That is more down to Virgin and DfT than TPE.

A couple of years before the franchise change DfT proposed to make the Manchester-Birmingham service 350s with the Manchester-Reading service staying as Voyagers. At that time there was no Manchester-Bristol service and alternate Manchester-Birmingham XC services didn't continue south of Birmingham. Virgin came up with a whole list of arguments against this and got their way.

Later on DfT wanted to increase frequencies on the WCML London routes. One way of doing this was to put 185s from the Windermere route on to the Voyager operated Manchester-Scotland services. The other way was EMUs on Birmingham-Scotland but due to previous arguments that had been given against using 350s the former went ahead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When was the last DIRECT Manchester to Holyhead service ran and which company ran it.? Is there still the demand for such services from the Manchester area or does the much-upgraded A55 now take away much of the prospective loadings?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Were there some RRNW or North West Trains Manchester to Holyheads?

 

[tbtc]

Were there some RRNW or North West Trains Manchester to Holyheads?

FNW ran a loco hauled version a decade ago.

 

[ainsworth74]

FNW ran a loco hauled version a decade ago.

Using 37s and Mk1s (might have been Mk2s actually) as I recall. Tended to be quite popular with bashers back in the day.

 

[anthony263]

Using 37s and Mk1s (might have been Mk2s actually) as I recall. Tended to be quite popular with bashers back in the day.

MK2 stock was used. Weren't class 47's also used at 1 time.

Maybe if ATW do happen to get enough stock in the future couldnt trains be times to split/attach at Llandudno Jct to the Llandudno - Manchester service?