Potential New Central Pennine Rail Line (Colne-Skipton)

[yorksrob]

If it was such a good idea, with all the benefits said to accrue from it, then why has this project not already been actioned by those with the finance and wherewithal to bring it to reality. How, for example, was this project seen as playing an integral rail role in "The Northern Powerhouse" project when that was first announced?

Because it's in England.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because it's in England.

Even the "Todmorden Chord" saw the eventual light of day, as has that other small project...."Crossrail"....but that seems to have movement being made.

 

[yorksrob]

Even the "Todmorden Chord" saw the eventual light of day, as has that other small project...."Crossrail"....but that seems to have movement being made.

The Todmorden chord is the equivalent to relaying a siding.

And London's always attracted expenditure, unlike the Shires.

 

[daodao]

Well said.

This potential reopening does not have a strategic role, as Central Lancashire is connected with the West Riding's most important cities and towns via the Copy Pit line. Whether its local potential role justifies its re-opening could be assessed according to the key criteria proposed by Altnabreac elsewhere on this site:

1. Population of 10,000+
2. 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
3. Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
4. Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required
5. Regeneration potential to justify public investment
6. Housing growth demand to create both demand and developer contributions.
7. Any extension / diversion should have the effect of generating more passengers than it loses.

Extension of the hourly diesel Preston-Colne stopping service is possible, but would enough of these boxes be ticked?

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst I agree with the environmental argument, I don't believe anyone is arguing otherwise. What is being argued is that whilst this fuel is being imported it is better to seek a solution to reduce the time, and more importantly fuel used in getting it to the station. Its either that or shut Drax and face a possible shortage in energy production.

It's not that though. The biomass has spent a week coming across the Atlantic, and probably the same again from harvest location to port the other side. It can also spend weeks in the silos on the dock side. An extra 6 hours in transit in this country is barely noise.

Drax will want it to reduce the cost of getting the biomass to the power station. Shortening the transit time from say 9 to 3 hours would broadly halve the resource requirement (locos, drivers, wagons), albeit that wouldn't halve the cost. Overall it would reduce their total input costs by perhsps a few percent. However it won't affect their output price, except at the margins, as that is governed by the wholesale electricity market. So all it would do is increase their profit.

Of course if I could see a project where Goverment would spend hundreds of millions to enable me to increase my profits at no cost to myself, then I too would be championing the cause.

 

[quantinghome]

Another thing - if it was decided that an East Lancs - West Yorks route was a strategic requirement for freight, wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to construct a chord at Hellifield to allow non-stop running from Clitheroe to Skipton?

 

[daodao]

Another thing - if it was decided that an East Lancs - West Yorks route was a strategic requirement for freight, wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to construct a chord at Hellifield to allow non-stop running from Clitheroe to Skipton?

I agree. It might be even cheaper to build a reversing siding there - Hellifield was formerly quite a big station, so there should be spare railway land available.

 

[47802]

Bottom line not viable on a local basis so lets come up with something else to try and justify it

 

[Ianno87]

Well said.

This potential reopening does not have a strategic role, as Central Lancashire is connected with the West Riding's most important cities and towns via the Copy Pit line. Whether its local potential role justifies its re-opening could be assessed according to the key criteria proposed by Altnabreac elsewhere on this site:

1. Population of 10,000+
2. 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
3. Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
4. Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required
5. Regeneration potential to justify public investment
6. Housing growth demand to create both demand and developer contributions.
7. Any extension / diversion should have the effect of generating more passengers than it loses.

Extension of the hourly diesel Preston-Colne stopping service is possible, but would enough of these boxes be ticked?

1. Yes, population of Colne and Nelson would satisfy that, surely

2. Pendle Valley would probably come within 60-75 minutes of leads (the bit that isn't in the easy catchment of Burnley Manchester Road already, or people who are prepared to drive to Steeton & Silsden)

3. Huge issue. Trackbed significantly built on/near in some places

4. Can extend existing Colne service, with option to combine with Skipton terminator if necessary. However, running more than 1toh would require extra services, and a loop/double track on existing Colne branch

5. Yes, Pendle valley lacks jobs and is very deprived

6. No developer is going to build new houses in an area where prices are already crazily low due to supply far outstripping demand. But does make better access to an existing housing supply (for more socially minded governments)

7. Potential to attract Leeds workers who currently live much closer and use other modes. But will abstract from existing Burnley Manchester Rd and Skipton demand to some extent.

On balance, probably a 'No' in the current climate, with 3 and 6 being the biggest blockers.

 

[HowardGWR]

3, doesn't look too bad from a height (google Earth and street view). The leisure centre loses a pitch and there is the road to cross there (in Colne).

 

[30907]

3, doesn't look too bad from a height (google Earth and street view). The leisure centre loses a pitch and there is the road to cross there (in Colne).

And various other roads, a canal and a river thence to Skipton. The station sites are industry rather than housing, too.

A chord at Hellifield is an intriguing idea, but it would have to be a good way out of the village and I suspect might be quite steeply graded for loaded (eastbound) trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's not that though. The biomass has spent a week coming across the Atlantic, and probably the same again from harvest location to port the other side. It can also spend weeks in the silos on the dock side. An extra 6 hours in transit in this country is barely noise.

Drax will want it to reduce the cost of getting the biomass to the power station. Shortening the transit time from say 9 to 3 hours would broadly halve the resource requirement (locos, drivers, wagons), albeit that wouldn't halve the cost. Overall it would reduce their total input costs by perhsps a few percent. However it won't affect their output price, except at the margins, as that is governed by the wholesale electricity market. So all it would do is increase their profit.

Of course if I could see a project where Goverment would spend hundreds of millions to enable me to increase my profits at no cost to myself, then I too would be championing the cause.

This is where a government then negotiates. Drax want a quicker and cheaper method of getting fuell from port to power station. They suggest the East Lancs option (or indeed Hellifield), the government offers to fund it through NR, but only with the agreement from the generator that output costs do come down accordingly.

 

[PR1Berske]

I was a much more passionate supporter of reopening this line until this thread, with point 3. in the very useful checklist a dampener to the project I think can't be resolved.

Sometimes we have to concede defeat (as people have over the Burscough Curves, for another example).

 

[Bald Rick]

This is where a government then negotiates. Drax want a quicker and cheaper method of getting fuell from port to power station. They suggest the East Lancs option (or indeed Hellifield), the government offers to fund it through NR, but only with the agreement from the generator that output costs do come down accordingly.

It doesn't work like that. The price Drax gets for its electricity is determined by the wholesale electricity market, not Drax. Their costs would, come down, but their prices wouldn't - because they are not prices that Drax sets.

 

[xotGD]

It doesn't work like that. The price Drax gets for its electricity is determined by the wholesale electricity market, not Drax. Their costs would, come down, but their prices wouldn't - because they are not prices that Drax sets.

For the biomass fuelled units Drax receive a subsidy for each MWh they generate. They could agree to a reduced subsidy in return for the line being built.

 

[The Planner]

How much of a future does biomass really have? Things change and if Drax decides it isn't worth it anymore you have spent a lot of money which never has a payback. A smaller comparison is the Dudley run round at Pleck Jn, put in to improve performance and capacity for trains to Rugeley power station, was used in earnest for a couple of years at best before Rugeley closed.

 

[bluenoxid]

The Shaftholme/North Doncaster chord will potentially be another one that people will point to about longevity of freight. The one for all those coal trains thundering to Drax.

 

[Class 170101]

If its that viable why don't Drax put the money up front and get money back for it in Access Charges in a similar way to how Chiltern Evergreen was built?

 

[Wtloild]

Apparently FailingGrayling was in Colne this week singing the praises of Colne-Skipton reopening as alternative Transpennine route:

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news...ad-and-rail-improvements-for-pendle-1-9558016

 

[Class 170101]

Apparently FailingGrayling was in Colne this week singing the praises of Colne-Skipton reopening as alternative Transpennine route:

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news...ad-and-rail-improvements-for-pendle-1-9558016

Without being able to read the article (ad Blocker), More spin from Grayling I would suggest.

 

[Legolash2o]

What's the whole appeal in re-opening Skipton-Colne? Why do freight want it so much?

 

[driver_m]

What's the whole appeal in re-opening Skipton-Colne? Why do freight want it so much?

You could get the biomass to Drax via a far less circuitous route for one which avoids Manchester .

 

[Dr Hoo]

You could get the biomass to Drax via a far less circuitous route for one which avoids Manchester .

But sadly puts you across a probably even busier layout at Leeds (as discussed many times before).

 

[MarkRedon]

Re-opening Colne-Skipton rail link on amber says minister

From Lancaster and Morecambe Citizen, https://www.thelancasterandmorecamb...lne-skipton-rail-link-on-amber-says-minister/

In an article written before his visit, the newspaper reports that Grayling will confirm the £400million project to extend the East Lancashire Line across the Pennines has been found 'technically possible' by an initial study.

The Cabinet minister will announce a second stage investigation into whether the demand for freight traffic on the route would make it commercially feasible...

"The initial study has established that it is technically feasible to re-open the route.

"This is the next stage to look at whether the demand for freight is enough to make it viable.

"The value of re-opening the line to passengers is a given but we need to see if enough freight would use it to justify it.

"I am personally committed to re-opening the Colne to Skipton line as an alternative route across the Pennines for freight traffic but that does not mean it will happen. The business case needs to be made."

 

[johnnychips]

Most things are technically possible if you spend enough money.

‘...that does not mean it will happen.’

It won’t, but yippee let’s have yet another investigation.

 

[J Ward]

Most things are technically possible if you spend enough money.

‘...that does not mean it will happen.’

It won’t, but yippee let’s have yet another investigation.

Presumably hire in more consultants?

 

[YorkshireBear]

But sadly puts you across a probably even busier layout at Leeds (as discussed many times before).

Yeah Yeah but but....

The disruption crossing the West end of Leeds would be pretty massive i'd say. I know some flows do it now, but this would see a significant increase.

 

[themiller]

Yeah Yeah but but....

The disruption crossing the West end of Leeds would be pretty massive i'd say. I know some flows do it now, but this would see a significant increase.

Offset by the lack of coal trains off the Settle & Carlisle, though.

 

[furnessvale]

Offset by the lack of coal trains off the Settle & Carlisle, though.

Indeed, biomass, which would allegedly be the main traffic involved, would be a direct replacement for that coal.

 

[quantinghome]

... the newspaper reports that Grayling will confirm the £400million project to extend the East Lancashire Line across the Pennines has been found 'technically possible' by an initial study.

That's a heck of a lot higher cost than its proponents on here have suggested.