Potential Merseyrail expansion beyond Headbolt Lane and/or timetable improvements

[CdBrux]

I seem to recall it was in the 1970s proposals and it was just a case that things were done as money became available, so a lot of the proposals e.g. West Derby never happened.

Apart from rolling stock and drivers (for Merseyrail, but presumably balanced by reduction elsewhere) what major investment would be needed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from rolling stock and drivers (for Merseyrail, but presumably balanced by reduction elsewhere) what major investment would be needed?

A couple of additional units fitted with traction batteries. And you might want to raise the platforms for level boarding.

In the 70s it would of course have meant electrification.

 

[mrd269697]

What would make sense is using Upholland. It’s close to the motorway (but not to a junction) and the closest to the middle of skem. Bus terminus big car park could be Skelmersdale Parkway. It’s far closer than some stations called ‘parkway’ - Tiverton parkway is over 5 miles from its namesake. Think it’s about 2 miles from the centre of Skem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would make sense is using Upholland. It’s close to the motorway (but not to a junction) and the closest to the middle of skem. Bus terminus big car park could be Skelmersdale Parkway. It’s far closer than some stations called ‘parkway’ - Tiverton parkway is over 5 miles from its namesake. Think it’s about 2 miles from the centre of Skem.

Upholland is situated in West Lancashire. Would that pose any problems?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Upholland is situated in West Lancashire. Would that pose any problems?

Lancs tend not to like funding rail, but if it'd reduce Northern's subsidy then it might well get DfT funding (though probably not at the moment).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Upholland is situated in West Lancashire. Would that pose any problems?

Skem is also in West Lancs. So more or less any solution to the Skem problem would have the same problems as this solution.

I've said before but there's probably no harm in saying again that some sort of 'Skem Parkway' solution like this - enhanced services on the existing line, more and better car parking and (hopefully) the routing of Skem local buses to the station - is probably the way to go. Yes, the existing line is not hugely convenient for most of Skem. But as I understand the town, there isn't one point which everyone could walk to to get a train, so people will drive, cycle or get the bus to the railhead anyhow (always assuming they're prepared to use the railhead rather than remaining in their car or bus/on their bike to their final destination). And surely an enhanced or new station will be greatly cheaper than a new station and a new branch line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has there ever been any officially stated statement concerning Upholland station as part of any line upgrading?

 

[GarethCoates]

I think that the good people of Northwood would not be pleased to be called the arse end of nowhere by some one down south.

You are correct! As a non-driver for medical reasons who lives within walking distance of the 'second' pedestrian entrance to Headbolt Lane and works in Wigan, I can't wait for the new station to open. I don't live in the arse end of nowhere, I live in a town with approximately 42,000 residents; many of whom find the current Kirkby station to be difficult to use because of the traffic caused by the growth of the place. I'd love to see the service to Wallgate become a 2tph 'Headbolt flyer', perhaps with 1tph going on to Blackburn as has historically been the case and the other terminating in the bay platform at Wallgate. It would be nice if services ran in the evenings and on Sundays too; I usually have to decline invites to work social events because I can't get home from them without going via Lime Street, which is a faff too far.

Given that the climate is changing and traffic is choking many places, I'm sure a 2tph service to Wigan would be well received, particularly in Orrell and Pemberton as well as by commuters in both directions (there are more of us than people think).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd love to see the service to Wallgate become a 2tph 'Headbolt flyer', perhaps with 1tph going on to Blackburn as has historically been the case and the other terminating in the bay platform at Wallgate.

The line through Kirkby was the original line of the Liverpool and Bury Railway which went via Wigan and Bolton. Blackburn was served by services of the Lancashire Union Railway from St Helens via Chorley.

 

[GarethCoates]

The line through Kirkby was the original line of the Liverpool and Bury Railway which went via Wigan and Bolton. Blackburn was served by services of the Lancashire Union Railway from St Helens via Chorley.

Sorry, I'm new here!

I was trying to talk about recent history; since I moved to Kirkby from down South nearly eight years ago, the Northern Service from Kirkby has always gone on to Blackburn. My point was that before the line from Kirkby closed to enable the final stage of works to get Headbolt Lane open, we got 1tph which went to Blackburn. I assume the service which terminates at Headbolt Lane will do the same but, given the line from there to Wigan Wallgate operates in isolation to other services, would argue in favour of a 'shuttle' between them in order to enhance the service. I don't think going beyond Wallgate would be practical because of the existing line traffic.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

given the line from there to Wigan Wallgate operates in isolation to other services, would argue in favour of a 'shuttle' between them in order to enhance the service. I don't think going beyond Wallgate would be practical because of the existing line traffic.

Would it not just make more sense to run the Leeds - Wallgate service down to Headbolt? It already sits in the sidings West of Wallgate for an hour, I feel like a small timetable recast could send a 2nd unit down there (although I don't know how the freight trains would deal with it).

 

[GarethCoates]

Would it not just make more sense to run the Leeds - Wallgate service down to Headbolt? It already sits in the sidings West of Wallgate for an hour, I feel like a small timetable recast could send a 2nd unit down there (although I don't know how the freight trains would deal with it).

I've no idea. I'm just taking a fairly selfish view, because I'll be making a minimum of 5 return journeys a week from Headbolt Lane to Wallgate.

The reason I suggested a 'shuttle' into the bay platform is that, when I used to start my commute at Kirkby, my train would regularly sit at Pemberton while it waited for Platform 2 to clear, making it (and me) late. I assume it still does - the replacement bus to Rainford takes so long that from Northwood it is quicker and more convenient for me to get a bus to Huyton and a train into North Western than to use the 21 bus and rail replacement to pick up the service at Rainford. That's one of the reasons we need Headbolt Lane in the first place.

Perhaps that wait would still occur but I don't see why it would given that nothing else passes between Pemberton and Wallgate; we'd always get stuck behind a service from Southport.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The reason I suggested a 'shuttle' into the bay platform is that, when I used to start my commute at Kirkby, my train would regularly sit at Pemberton while it waited for Platform 2 to clear,

Most of the time the Southport - Stalybridge is leaving 07 but I've seen it late and hold up the Rainford - Blackburn a decent few times too.
Even more risk of incident with the 3 times a day the train runs early (due to the freight) and is due into Wallgate only 4 mins after the Stalybridge is due to leave.

 

[WAO]

There's a press report that the "Berlin Wall" concrete block obstructing the through route at the station has been removed.

What does this mean, if true? Will south side pedestrian access be maintained?

If our valiant photographers have any images of the completed platforms, they would be very welcome.

WAO

 

[Bletchleyite]

The far platform won't be much use if you can't get to it! I don't know why it was removed (perhaps it wasn't to spec, or perhaps they needed to get something through?) but I can't see why it wouldn't be reinstated.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This thread is certainly proving its worth as a thread on the Speculative Discussion forum, where people's thoughts have no need to be checked by annoying matters such as financial reality.

 

[GarethCoates]

This thread is certainly proving its worth as a thread on the Speculative Discussion forum, where people's thoughts have no need to be checked by annoying matters such a financial reality.

For what it's worth, I think a Headbolt Lane - Wigan Wallgate service could wash its face financially. My vision is for 1tph, running roughly opposite the Blackburn service (freight trains permitting) and continuing into the evening and perhaps also running on Sunday. Connecting Kirkby to Wigan more frequently encourages leisure travel to Wigan and beyond. It would improve rail links for Orrell and Pemberton for commuters and shoppers alike. It could even be a viable way for passengers in Kirkby and North Liverpool to travel onwards to Manchester without going through Lime Street, especially for football traffic on Saturdays where the flow would presumably be two way.

If Northern's Kirkby branch is under-utilised, it's probably because having an infrequent and not particularly reliable service puts people off. The opening of Headbolt Lane should represent an opportunity to 'reboot' that and the best way to do that (in my opinion, as a passenger) is improving the frequency.

I don't know the ins and outs, so I'm probably wrong in about a million ways. I'm just a lifelong rail passenger with an interest in what the railways have achieved and might in the future if run properly

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know the ins and outs, so I'm probably wrong in about a million ways. I'm just a lifelong rail passenger with an interest in what the railways have achieved and might in the future if run properly

When do you think was the last time that "the railways ran properly"?

 

[najaB]

When do you think was the last time that "the railways ran properly"?

Italy, 1938?

 

[GarethCoates]

When do you think was the last time that "the railways ran properly"?

Based on a combination of lived experience as a passenger and extensive reading, I'd suggest the period prior to the break-up and privatisation of British Rail. According to Wolmar (2022), Britain had the most efficient railway in Europe at the time and, growing up in the old Network South-East region, I recall the phasing out of the old slam-door trains coinciding with a general improvement in service performance.

I suppose how anyone defines managing a complex industry such as this "properly" depends on where you feel responsibility for that lies. My belief is that there are a handful of essential industries / services which should be run for the public good, rather than purely for the benefit of shareholders. Public transport would be one, the utilities (water, electricity and gas) and the postal service would be others.

One of the main arguments used to justify privatisation was that it would open lines up to competition. In the main, that hasn't happened and great chunks of the network are now operated by businesses owned by the state-owned operators of other national railways. At present, we have the worst of all worlds; the network has effectively be nationalised in all but name but the private companies awardeded the franchises are continuing to generate huge profits.

I see the railways as drivers of economic activity and social mobility, rather than as profit centres. The history of railway development is littered with companies who struggled to make lines pay and were swallowed up by former rivals. Why? Perhaps it is because running a railway is more complicated and labour intensive than running a conventional business?

I would never argue that the old British Rail was perfect; clearly, it wasn't. Nor should the network as it exists now be immune from change; if there are improvements which can be made, they should be. But what we have now, with the fragmentation, ongoing industrial disputes, the proposal to shut most ticket offices and poor reliability of services, is no way to run a railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At present, we have the worst of all worlds; the network has effectively be nationalised in all but name but the private companies awardeded the franchises are continuing to generate huge profits.

Do you see a comparison here with the Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester's "Bee Network" vision that sees the TfGM awarded bus franchises still operated by private companies?

 

[GarethCoates]

Perhaps, but I think a closer comparison is probably with London's bus network. TfL doesn't run all the buses itself, it contracts that element out. However, TfL regulates the operation of the buses, sets the fares, controls service frequency and so on. I don't live in Greater Manchester and I walk to work once I get off the train, so I don't have much knowledge in respect of how the Bee Network might be run.

I'm not against the idea of a business providing a service and making a profit from it. I think making excessive profits while at the same time failing to provide reliable trains and / or fair recompense and safe working conditions for staff is a problem. My perception of the current situation (and again, I might be wrong) is that certain TOCs are making a lot of money, but their customers and staff are putting up with some pretty unpleasant situations.

 

[WAO]

When do you think was the last time that "the railways ran properly"?

I suggest that they ran better when they had a single "controlling mind", such as before Nationalisation, when they had accountable General Managers not Chairs, who could balance the claims of engineering, operating and commercial departments. BR nearly had this, although it was always constricted by the MoT and Treasury, and early on by Lord Hurcomb's sinecure, the British Transport Commission.

There are still many good things about the modern railway; technology, safety, speed, frequency (of service), even customer service etc., so lets not knock it; the staff at all levels generally do a good job with what they have.

It's still a pity no-one banged heads together to produce a proper/cheaper through station at Headbolt Lane/Simonswood rather than two dead ends!

WAO

 

[Elecman]

Do you see a comparison here with the Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester's "Bee Network" vision that sees the TfGM awarded bus franchises still operated by private companies?

Seems to work perfectly well in London under TfL control

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Seems to work perfectly well in London under TfL control

My posting was made in response to the one made by @GarethCoates who was concerned that in such a scenario, the private companies that were awarded the franchises were continuing to generate huge profits.

 

[najaB]

My posting was made in response to the one made by @GarethCoates who was concerned that in such a scenario, the private companies that were awarded the franchises were continuing to generate huge profits.

It all depends on how the franchise is specified - and where the competition is expected to occur. In the case of TfL the competition happens in the tendering phase, in the case of the railways the competition is expected to happen on the rails. The way that the rail franchises were specified put the risk on the government and the reward firmly in the laps of the companies.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It all depends on how the franchise is specified - and where the competition is expected to occur. In the case of TfL the competition happens in the tendering phase, in the case of the railways the competition is expected to happen on the rails. The way that the rail franchises were specified put the risk on the government and the reward firmly in the laps of the companies.

I still am amazed to be told that the companies operating rail franchises generate huge profits. I live in the area of "Northern" and wonder if such a blanket statement applies to them

 

[GarethCoates]

I still am amazed to be told that the companies operating rail franchises generate huge profits. I live in the area of "Northern" and wonder if such a blanket statement applies to them

Clearly, I am going to have to be extremely precise with my language if I intend to keep posting here.

Given that the Northern franchise was terminated in 2020 and the Department for Transport's Operator of Last Resort is managing services operated under the Northern brand, no, the "blanket statement" I previously made (which, admittedly, was a little clumsy and could have been improved by the word 'some') would not apply to Northern. However,

I made no reference to bus companies making huge profits, although I did express the opinion (which I stand by) that all public transport should be in public ownership / management. TfL's system works well, if Merseyside and Greater Manchester can achieve something similar the benefits for bus and rail users alike should be significant.

I have no idea if this recent contribution to the thread

This thread is certainly proving its worth as a thread on the Speculative Discussion forum, where people's thoughts have no need to be checked by annoying matters such as financial reality.

was aimed at my suggestion that an hourly "shuttle" service between Headbolt Lane and Wigan Wallgate might be popular, but you have directly challenged me on some of the points I've made and I've sought to engage with you honestly and politely. I am, however, beginning to wonder if you're just picking on a newbie.

 

[Chester1]

You are correct! As a non-driver for medical reasons who lives within walking distance of the 'second' pedestrian entrance to Headbolt Lane and works in Wigan, I can't wait for the new station to open. I don't live in the arse end of nowhere, I live in a town with approximately 42,000 residents; many of whom find the current Kirkby station to be difficult to use because of the traffic caused by the growth of the place. I'd love to see the service to Wallgate become a 2tph 'Headbolt flyer', perhaps with 1tph going on to Blackburn as has historically been the case and the other terminating in the bay platform at Wallgate. It would be nice if services ran in the evenings and on Sundays too; I usually have to decline invites to work social events because I can't get home from them without going via Lime Street, which is a faff too far.

Given that the climate is changing and traffic is choking many places, I'm sure a 2tph service to Wigan would be well received, particularly in Orrell and Pemberton as well as by commuters in both directions (there are more of us than people think).

2tph does seem excessive for now and long distance services on a track with single sections has reliability risks. An hourly shuttle might the best option.

if Merseyrail is extended the managment might not be too keen on terminating at Wallgate platform 3 due to risk of importing Southport - Manchester delays. When the Wallgate bridge eventually gets replaced it would a suitable time to redesign the layout of the station. It could be redesigned so that there is a track from the north and terminating platform that is segregated from Southport - Wigan. While there hasn’t been anything official yet, giving the line to Merseyrail would be the obvious choice when decarbonising reaches low income lines. The alternative would be battery trains run by Northern. Extending Merseyrail reduces the decarbonisation challenge for Northern (and TfW for borderlands line).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I am, however, beginning to wonder if you're just picking on a newbie.

I don't think that's what is happening. But if you can face wading through the entire thread and related ones, you may find that other people have expressed similar views to yours - so those with different views have their responses thought through and ready to fire off.