Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

[YorkshireBear]

Unfortunately the Lib Dems will for ever be associated with the broken promise on tuition fees when in coalition.

Despite them never breaking a promise as they were never in power.

Nick Clegg calculated that maintaining the coalition was more important so as to keep a stable country and a economy without uncertainty. I think on balance he was right. Its a travesty he was judged on that.

 

[Mag_seven]

Despite them never breaking a promise as they were never in power.

That might be the case, but we are talking about peoples perceptions here. Anyway I'm sure the new Independent group of MP's will welcome any discontented LibDems into their ranks (if there are any!)

 

[bb21]

For the avoidance of doubt, the following words are not acceptable under any circumstance when directed (implicitly or explicitly) at another forum member:

• remoaner;
• clown;

Whether you agree with a fellow forum member or not, you must respect their views and their right to expressing such a view, within reason, forum rules and relevant legislation. You are of course free to challenge their views, in a sensible and mature manner.

Thank you.

 

[swt class 450]

Yes i do believe the elections in Venezuela were 100% legit. It is all the western propaganda media (like BBC CNN FOX etc) making up lies saying they were not. The voting systems in place were very secure and made it almost impossible to fraud the system. Also there were many international observers there who confirmed that everything was fair and legit. Something that they don't tell you is that the opposition (including far right terrorist and USA puppet Juan Guaido and his team) actually asked the UN and international observers not to attend. They didn't want them attending because they knew that Nicolas Maduro was running fair legitimate elections and they knew that it would make it harder to lie and say that they were rigged. So the elections in Venezuela were actually 100% legit.

Many western so called democratic countries have had far more questionable elections. Including in the USA and many western European countries which have had some rather dodgy elections.

On another note it is worth pointing out that before Jeremy Corbyn became leader we had three parties which were basically the same. Labour and Liberal Democrats and Conservatives were all pretty much the same with very similar views and policies (just like how in the one party state of the USA the democrats and republicans are basically the same party but try to disguise themselves as completely different parties). So whoever you voted for would pretty much be the same. There was really no choice. Now that Jeremy Corbyn has become leader he has made Labour in to a distinctive party that is different from the rest and has given people a reason to vote for them. Before we got Jeremy Corbyn i never would have voted Labour under the blairites. I always voted for very small parties that never even got close to gaining a seat because they were the only ones that shared my views. So believe it or not Jeremy Corbyn has massively increased the popularity of the Labour Party and got more people to vote for them.

The people who prefered the previous blairite run Labour Party still have the very similar Liberal Democrats and Conservatives to vote for.

 

[433N]

The "broad church" certainly wasn't that broad and encompassing with the left, or alleged Militant, in the 80s. Let's not over-egg the pudding here.

they were not Labour. They were a party within a party. They were "entryists" to use a lefties phrase.

You know, you can believe what you want to believe but this narrative that has built up over the years isn't one that I personally recognise.

During the Miner's Strike, I knew alot of people (1 or 2 intimately ) who were hard left as I spent alot of time on picket lines and collecting. First and foremost, these were 'Labour people'. Obviously at that time, they felt betrayed that Kinnock's Labour didn't come out in support of the strike (which did beggar belief at the time) and merely wanted to influence Labour back to its traditional roots. This was a time when 'socialist' hadn't been coined as an insult by right wing media. The Labour leadership did seek to demonise these people owing to their criticism of them over not supporting the strike ... and, of course, gained traction over the whole Hatton thing.

As an example, by no stretch of the imagination was Scargill an 'entryist' and yet the 'broad church' of the Labour party started treating him like a bad smell.

As I say, I find it difficult to buy into narratives on Labour. I struggle with the idea that Labour is ingrained with anti-Semitism which seems to be received wisdom now. I'm not saying that there isn't truth in it, but it is hard to reconcile with the hard fact that their last elected leader was jewish (although that seems to have been conveniently 'forgotten' now).

 

[Typhoon]

The people who prefered the previous blairite run Labour Party still have the very similar Liberal Democrats and Conservatives to vote for.

I'm not certain that Tony Blair himself could be persuaded to vote for a member of the ERG - and not just on European policy. Some of them are a long way to the right and will probably exert influence on the Conservative Party for a long time to come. It probably has more members than the Socialist Campaign Group ever had.

 

[DarloRich]

You know, you can believe what you want to believe but this narrative that has built up over the years isn't one that I personally recognise.

During the Miner's Strike, I knew alot of people (1 or 2 intimately ) who were hard left as I spent alot of time on picket lines and collecting. First and foremost, these were 'Labour people'. Obviously at that time, they felt betrayed that Kinnock's Labour didn't come out in support of the strike (which did beggar belief at the time) and merely wanted to influence Labour back to its traditional roots. This was a time when 'socialist' hadn't been coined as an insult by right wing media. The Labour leadership did seek to demonise these people owing to their criticism of them over not supporting the strike ... and, of course, gained traction over the whole Hatton thing.

As an example, by no stretch of the imagination was Scargill an 'entryist' and yet the 'broad church' of the Labour party started treating him like a bad smell.

As I say, I find it difficult to buy into narratives on Labour. I struggle with the idea that Labour is ingrained with anti-Semitism which seems to be received wisdom now. I'm not saying that there isn't truth in it, but it is hard to reconcile with the hard fact that their last elected leader was jewish (although that seems to have been conveniently 'forgotten' now).

You will be happy that on the day 7 MPs resigned from Labour Corbyn readmitted Hatton then. Galloway next. Livingston after that?

And yes there is an antisemitic problem in Labour. It is especially prevalent in the harder left crackpots gathered around and encouraged by Corbyn. This has long been an issue in those circles. If, as you suggest, you have been around left wing politics for as long as claim you must have been blind to the issue to have never seen it.

It has now become mainstream because of the bridge into labour offered by Corbyn. The sad fact is many of this group simply do not see the issue. Their obsession with Palestine clouds everything. In fact the entire Corbyn foreign policy is predicated on two things: Palestine and the deconstruction of Western political bodies.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You will be happy that on the day 7 MPs resigned from Labour Corbyn readmitted Hatton then. Galloway next. Livingston after that?

And yes there is an antisemitic problem in Labour. It is especially prevalent in the harder left crackpots gathered around and encouraged by Corbyn. This has long been an issue in those circles. If, as you suggest, you have been around left wing politics for as long as claim you must have been blind to the issue to have never seen it.

It has now become mainstream because of the bridge into labour offered by Corbyn. The sad fact is many of this group simply do not see the issue. Their obsession with Palestine clouds everything. In fact the entire Corbyn foreign policy is predicated on two things: Palestine and the deconstruction of Western political bodies.

It's amazing how people who berate one organisation for a 'closed shop' attitude can fully support a 'faith' that does the same thing and far worse.

 

[DarloRich]

It's amazing how people who berate one organisation for a 'closed shop' attitude can fully support a 'faith' that does the same thing and far worse.

could you clarify your point? I am afraid it isnt clear to me what you are trying to say.

 

[433N]

You will be happy that on the day 7 MPs resigned from Labour Corbyn readmitted Hatton then. Galloway next. Livingston after that?

And yes there is an antisemitic problem in Labour. It is especially prevalent in the harder left crackpots gathered around and encouraged by Corbyn. This has long been an issue in those circles. If, as you suggest, you have been around left wing politics for as long as claim you must have been blind to the issue to have never seen it.

It has now become mainstream because of the bridge into labour offered by Corbyn. The sad fact is many of this group simply do not see the issue. Their obsession with Palestine clouds everything. In fact the entire Corbyn foreign policy is predicated on two things: Palestine and the deconstruction of Western political bodies.

I didn't make a claim about being around left wing politics for a long time . Seems to me it is a recipe for being angry all the time.

I don't know what a 'harder left crackpot' is. Surely, Marx was the hardest left crackpot ? Whatever, he probably had the greatest ever understanding of the relationship between humans and work ... and he believed that capitalism was useful in economies at a certain stage in their development ... and he was Jewish to boot.

The idea of 'harder left crackpots' is the kind of lazy straw man argument that right wing press owners love so much. Life is more complex than that.

 

[DarloRich]

I didn't make a claim about being around left wing politics for a long time . Seems to me it is a recipe for being angry all the time.

I don't know what a 'harder left crackpot' is. Surely, Marx was the hardest left crackpot ? Whatever, he probably had the greatest ever understanding of the relationship between humans and work ... and he believed that capitalism was useful in economies at a certain stage in their development ... and he was Jewish to boot.

The idea of 'harder left crackpots' is the kind of lazy straw man argument that right wing press owners love so much. Life is more complex than that.

Really? You don't know who these people are? Really? Perhaps start at Seamus Milne and work from there..........................

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting that the messaging from senior Labour people is changing: Yesterday it was that traitors must hang ( or at least resign and call a by election) but today, according to the BBC:

I think we need a mammoth, massive listening exercise and to address some of those criticisms that have been made. I think we are finding a way forward, but it has got to be on the basis of taking the advice of people like Tom Watson, the PLP and others.

"If there are issues that we have to address, we'll address them; if it is about the style of the leadership, we'll address that; if it is about policy, we will listen to that as well.

It also seems from twitter that there was a very heated PLP meeting in which there was a full and frank exchange of views on this split which led, in part, to the changed messaging.

PS - Still no sign of Corbyn on this point. Another total failure of leadership?

 

[Kite159]

PS - Still no sign of Corbyn on this point. Another total failure of leadership?

He's probably too busy making jam/pottering around on his allotment again waiting for his minders to give him the right words to say.

 

[Esker-pades]

Interesting that the messaging from senior Labour people is changing: Yesterday it was that traitors must hang ( or at least resign and call a by election) but today, according to the BBC:



It also seems from twitter that there was a very heated PLP meeting in which there was a full and frank exchange of views on this split which led, in part, to the changed messaging.

PS - Still no sign of Corbyn on this point. Another total failure of leadership?

He released a statement. It doesn't really say anything of use, it's fantastically predictable and full of tedious political twaddle, but he has said something nonetheless.
https://labour.org.uk/press/statement-jeremy-corbyn/

“I am disappointed that these MPs have felt unable to continue to work together for the Labour policies that inspired millions at the last election and saw us increase our vote by the largest share since 1945.

“Labour won people over on a programme for the many not the few – redistributing wealth and power, taking vital resources into public ownership, investing in every region and nation, and tackling climate change.

“The Conservative Government is bungling Brexit, while Labour has set out a unifying and credible alternative plan. When millions are facing the misery of Universal Credit, rising crime, homelessness and poverty, now more than ever is the time to bring people together to build a better future for us all.”

 

[swt class 450]

What else should Jeremy Corbyn say? Whatever he says the right wing blairites and pro EU lobby and zionists will continue to attack him so what is the point of making any other statement? There is nothing else to say. Better to just be glad that they have left and continue with making the Labour Party a socialist party of the working class again.

 

[Esker-pades]

What else should Jeremy Corbyn say? Whatever he says the right wing blairites and pro EU lobby and zionists will continue to attack him so what is the point of making any other statement? There is nothing else to say. Better to just be glad that they have left and continue with making the Labour Party a socialist party of the working class again.

Address the specific concerns that were raised (Brexit and anti-semitism) rather than dribble out the same soundbites.

 

[DanDaDriver]

What else should Jeremy Corbyn say? Whatever he says the right wing blairites and pro EU lobby and zionists will continue to attack him so what is the point of making any other statement? There is nothing else to say. Better to just be glad that they have left and continue with making the Labour Party a socialist party of the working class again.

Ok. You are “Mr. Logic” from Viz magazine and I claim my £10

 

[DarloRich]

He released a statement.

apologies - I meant front foot media appearances. Why is McDonnell on TV and not the party leader? It will be that grinning simpleton Burgon next!

What else should Jeremy Corbyn say? Whatever he says the right wing blairites and pro EU lobby and zionists will continue to attack him so what is the point of making any other statement? There is nothing else to say. Better to just be glad that they have left and continue with making the Labour Party a socialist party of the working class again.

dear me. Please, if you are unable or unwilling to engage in the topic in any depth or maturity, stop.

 

[swt class 450]

There is nothing else to say. The so called anti semitism issue doesn't actually exist. There is no anti semitism in the Labour Party at all. It is just all the zionists and their allies in the apartheid fake state of Israel trying to cause problems like they always do. As for brexit Jeremy Corbyn has already made it clear that he supports the democratic choice of the people to leave the EU. He has said everything he needs to say on brexit and his position on it. There is nothing else to address.

 

[Esker-pades]

There is nothing else to say. The so called anti semitism issue doesn't actually exist. There is no anti semitism in the Labour Party at all. It is just all the zionists and their allies in the apartheid fake state of Israel trying to cause problems like they always do. As for brexit Jeremy Corbyn has already made it clear that he supports the democratic choice of the people to leave the EU. He has said everything he needs to say on brexit and his position on it. There is nothing else to address.

Saying "I've made my position clear" does not make the position clear. If I had a pound for the number of Labour MPs who have said that when talking about Brexit, I'd be able pay off my student loan. Twice.

As for anti-semitism, when John McDonnell admits that it exists within the Labour Party, it's probably a good indication that it does. However, it's clear you won't change your opinion. I cannot engage any further.

 

[DarloRich]

There is no anti semitism in the Labour Party at all. It is just all the zionists and their allies in the apartheid fake state of Israel trying to cause problems like they always do

sigh. The fact that people such as user1234 can not see the contradiction between the first statement and the second is the problem. Words and phrases like "zionist" and "apartheid fake state" are used as code to criticise Jews and hold the state of Israel and Jewish people to a higher standard than that expected of other nations. The antisemitic inference in these slogans is clear. This is exactly why there is a problem in the Labour party.

This problem has long existed in harder left circles. It has moved more mainstream because Corbyn has offered these people a bridge into the party and they have crossed that bridge and taken control of the party.

 

[swt class 450]

No the problem is people who can't understand the difference between anti semitism and anti zionism. That is the problem. Criticising the Jewish people and criticising Israel are two completely different things. So many people don't understand this. Saying that Israel is a fake illegitimate apartheid terrorist state is not anti semitism. Saying that Israel should not exist and all land should be given back to Palestine is not anti semitism. Criticising the daily mass murder of the Palestinians by the IDF terrorists is not anti semitism. In none of those things have i said anything against the Jewish people.

If you are using that logic then that would also mean that criticising Saudi Arabia is anti Muslim or criticising the USA is anti Christian or criticising India is anti Hindu etc etc etc. But nobody ever says that.

People need to realise the difference between criticising the state of Israel and zionism and criticising the Jewish people and being anti semitic. It is two completely different things.

I suggest you look up the Neturei Karta who are a group of Jewish people who are anti Israel and anti Zionist and have supported Jeremy Corbyn and are against the existence of Israel. So even many Jewish people are against Israel and against zionism.

The real problem is the zionists and the pro Israel lobby who have a huge amount of control over the UK and USA and most western countries unfortunately. These are the people who are always causing problems and trying to accuse anyone of being anti semitic if they criticise Israel or criticise zionism. These people are the real problem. These are the people who we need to get out of our politics.

 

[Bletchleyite]

sigh. The fact that people such as user1234 can not see the contradiction between the first statement and the second is the problem. Words and phrases like "zionist" and "apartheid fake state" are used as code to criticise Jews and hold the state of Israel and Jewish people to a higher standard than that expected of other nations. The antisemitic inference in these slogans is clear.

Well, quite. You can talk about the political issues that do exist regarding the Israeli vs Palestinian claims on land and about Israeli foreign policy without using such emotive terms, the use of which quite clearly shows anti-Semitism. Similar terminology includes such things as talk of "wiping off the map" which while they probably do just technically mean the country should be Palestine (an opinion they're entitled to, even though I happen to think it's not even remotely that simple myself) contains a deliberately aggressive undertone.

 

[Esker-pades]

No the problem is people who can't understand the difference between anti semitism and anti zionism. That is the problem. Criticising the Jewish people and criticising Israel are two completely different things. So many people don't understand this. Saying that Israel is a fake illegitimate apartheid terrorist state is not anti semitism. Saying that Israel should not exist and all land should be given back to Palestine is not anti semitism. Criticising the daily mass murder of the Palestinians by the IDF terrorists is not anti semitism. In none of those things have i said anything against the Jewish people.

If you are using that logic then that would also mean that criticising Saudi Arabia is anti Muslim or criticising the USA is anti Christian or criticising India is anti Hindu etc etc etc. But nobody ever says that.

People need to realise the difference between criticising the state of Israel and zionism and criticising the Jewish people and being anti semitic. It is two completely different things.

I suggest you look up the Neturei Karta who are a group of Jewish people who are anti Israel and anti Zionist and have supported Jeremy Corbyn and are against the existence of Israel. So even many Jewish people are against Israel and against zionism.

The real problem is the zionists and the pro Israel lobby who have a huge amount of control over the UK and USA and most western countries unfortunately. These are the people who are always causing problems and trying to accuse anyone of being anti semitic if they criticise Israel or criticise zionism. These people are the real problem. These are the people who we need to get out of our politics.

There are ways to criticise Israel that are not anti-semitic, but there are also ways to criticise Israel that are anti-semitic. The comments that Jewish Labour MPs (and other Jewish people) get from parts of the Labour Party and the associated groups go way beyond reasonable debate about the issues surrounding Israel and Palestine.

 

[DarloRich]

I knew this would be the line of response. You get to see the same arguments over and over again.

No the problem is people who can't understand the difference between anti semitism and anti zionism.

perhaps like you? You cant even spell the word correctly!

I suggest you look up the Neturei Karta who are a group of Jewish people who are anti Israel and anti Zionist and have supported Jeremy Corbyn and are against the existence of Israel. So even many Jewish people are against Israel and against zionism.

There is an interesting article in the Jewish Chronicle about this group posters may like to read for some balance and accuracy about what is a very small and very outlying Jewish group: https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/who-are-the-neturei-karta-1.444090

The real problem is the zionists and the pro Israel lobby who have a huge amount of control over the UK and USA and most western countries unfortunately. These are the people who are always causing problems and trying to accuse anyone of being anti semitic if they criticise Israel or criticise zionism. These people are the real problem. These are the people who we need to get out of our politics.

Yet another example of this poster failing to understand the term antisemitic. The code words are there again, as is the ancient antisemitic canard that Jews wield secret power over world events.

I think you need to stop digging.

 

[edwin_m]

Whatever he says the ... pro EU lobby ... will continue to attack him.

Surveys suggest the Labour membership that elected Corbyn is strongly in favour of a referendum on the Brexit deal.

Saying that Israel is a fake illegitimate apartheid terrorist state is not anti semitism.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour).

https://antisemitism.uk/definition/

 

[Aictos]

I suggest you look up the Neturei Karta who are a group of Jewish people who are anti Israel and anti Zionist and have supported Jeremy Corbyn and are against the existence of Israel. So even many Jewish people are against Israel and against zionism.
.

Using the link provided by @DarloRich I like to know how you can say many Jewish people are against Israel and are Anti Zionism when facts prove that the sect numbers around 5,000 which is just 0.03% of the entire Jewish population of 14.3 people in short there's is no mathematical way possible that you can laid claim that many Jewish people are against Israel and are Anti Zionist when it's a tiny minority if that.

It's just impossible as many would be far more then just 0.03%

 

[WelshBluebird]

Can we stop viewing everything in black and white, right and wrong, views?
The reality is a lot more nuanced.

Yes, some antisemitism is more "cloaked" than others, and yes some criticism of the state of Israel is just antisemitism being hidden away. However there are legitimate concerns about how Israel operates, and pointing those out in a legitimate way is not at all antisemitic. Personally, I have still yet to see any evidence at all of institutionalized antisemitism within the Labour party. That isn't to say there have been incidents of antisemtism, or that there aren't some people within the party who hold such views, or that there haven't been some horrible abuse (that needs to be stamped out). But to say it is institutionalized is a massive claim, as would claiming that there isn't any antisemitism at all.

And as for calling Corbyn a terrorist etc, I think people have to remember that peace needs people to meet in the middle even if you don't like it. People don't seem to be having a go at Blair etc for talking to some not very nice characters during the process of the Good Friday agreement for example, despite some of the people involved!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Can we criticise Maxwell and Dame Shirley Porter without being classified as evil anti-semites ? It seems to be going full tilt from one extreme to the other- You can't attack all Jewish people for the actions of a few but by the same token you can't ignore the actions that some people do because they are Jewish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we criticise Maxwell and Dame Shirley Porter without being classified as evil anti-semites ? It seems to be going full tilt from one extreme to the other- You can't attack all Jewish people for the actions of a few but by the same token you can't ignore the actions that some people do because they are Jewish.

The sensible test is whether that same criticism is applied to a non-Jewish person in the same position, no?

So if you criticise Israel for doing X, but would not criticise, say, the USA for doing the same X, then there is an innate bias, i.e. anti-Semitism. But if you criticise it for doing X but hold the same critical view about every other country that does X, that's just a legitimate criticism.

You can often tell, when terms like "removing from the map", "Zionism" and the likes come to the fore, as they did above. Use of wilfully emotive terms tend to signify a bias rather than a rational criticism of policy.