Potential Hall Farm Curve and Connection to Barking?

[gsc777]

Asking for a friend — if the Hall Farm Curve was to be re-instated, would there be enough capacity between Stratford and the Woodgrange Park Junction to to run services from Chingford to Barking Riverside via Stratford? Or is the combination of Greater Anglia and Elizabeth Line services already too much?

This is assuming that services will use the High Meads Loop, rather than the usual Temple Mills route.

 

[Harpo]

Pretty unlikely to be the capacity for a regular headway service that 'crosses the lot' at Stratford country end. The GE in BR days even investigated possible routes to bypass Stratford such as a flyover linking the Forest Gate area with the T&H (GOBLIN in current parlance) but concluded it wasn't achievable.

 

[Magdalia]

would there be enough capacity between Stratford and the Woodgrange Park Junction to to run services from Chingford to Barking Riverside via Stratford?

No it would require crossing all 4 tracks of the main line on the level.

This is assuming that services will use the High Meads Loop, rather than the usual Temple Mills route.

And there wouldn't be capacity between High Meads and Stratford either.

The GOBLIN already provides direct trains between Walthamstow and Barking with grade separation at Woodgrange Park.

 

[cle]

Hall Farm I think would be best for Overground continuation from Stratford. Simple, already aligned, wired, etc. You might be able to drop a Chingford-Liverpool St frequency and add it elsewhere on the WA network, given the Stratford connections - inc EL to wherever - would be so comprehensive. Plus others like Jubilee, DLR so I think it'd be an ok trade-off.

The Stokey/Enfield route should really be a metro service.

 

[gsc777]

Hall Farm I think would be best for Overground continuation from Stratford. Simple, already aligned, wired, etc. You might be able to drop a Chingford-Liverpool St frequency and add it elsewhere on the WA network, given the Stratford connections - inc EL to wherever - would be so comprehensive. Plus others like Jubilee, DLR so I think it'd be an ok trade-off.

The Stokey/Enfield route should really be a metro service.

do you reckon, in that case, that a NLL service could be routed towards Chingford instead? maybe not all of them but 2tph perhaps?

also, if nobody minds, could someone give me a quick overview of what the current NLL situation is with regards to capacity, chaos, freight etc? I was looking into what could be done with Primrose Hill and everywhere I go I see different inconsistent things being said.

 

[Mgameing123]

do you reckon, in that case, that a NLL service could be routed towards Chingford instead? maybe not all of them but 2tph perhaps?

also, if nobody minds, could someone give me a quick overview of what the current NLL situation is with regards to capacity, chaos, freight etc? I was looking into what could be done with Primrose Hill and everywhere I go I see different inconsistent things being said.

An Overground service via Primrose Hill isn't impossible even if the line reached capacity. If you split trains at Camden Road then you can run 1 train to Queens Park and other part to Clapham Junction/Richmond.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

No it would require crossing all 4 tracks of the main line on the level.

And there wouldn't be capacity between High Meads and Stratford either.

The GOBLIN already provides direct trains between Walthamstow and Barking with grade separation at Woodgrange Park.

Couldn't that be achievable if we timetabled these trains close to the Straford stoppers.

 

[cle]

do you reckon, in that case, that a NLL service could be routed towards Chingford instead? maybe not all of them but 2tph perhaps?

also, if nobody minds, could someone give me a quick overview of what the current NLL situation is with regards to capacity, chaos, freight etc? I was looking into what could be done with Primrose Hill and everywhere I go I see different inconsistent things being said.

I would think that was possible, yes - there would be a conflict at the turn out but it isn't so high frequency past Lea Bridge that it couldn't be pathed.

Another option could be Overground up to e.g. Meridian Water - but I think the Walthamstow/Chingford potential is more interesting. And anyone headed to North London via Tottenham would jump on to Highbury. This has the new Stratford demand and connectivity element too.

 

[Mgameing123]

do you reckon, in that case, that a NLL service could be routed towards Chingford instead? maybe not all of them but 2tph perhaps?

also, if nobody minds, could someone give me a quick overview of what the current NLL situation is with regards to capacity, chaos, freight etc? I was looking into what could be done with Primrose Hill and everywhere I go I see different inconsistent things being said.

Also I believe that the idea is also to provide a direct Barking to Stratford train outside of weekends.

 

[gsc777]

Also I believe that the idea is also to provide a direct Barking to Stratford train outside of weekends.

This was the reason for me initially posting!

 

[Bald Rick]

do you reckon, in that case, that a NLL service could be routed towards Chingford instead? maybe not all of them but 2tph perhaps?

It would cost a lot of money for limited benefit. The rebuild of Stratford to enable it would be significant, and very disruptive to existing NLL operations, GA’s service to the Lea Valley, and freight.

 

[gsc777]

It would cost a lot of money for limited benefit. The rebuild of Stratford to enable it would be significant, and very disruptive to existing NLL operations, GA’s service to the Lea Valley, and freight.

what would need to be rebuilt besides the HFC? Raildar could be inaccurate but I've been using it to study the tracks, and it seems that there are through platforms that could be used without causing too much disruption to the main line?

 

[Bald Rick]

what would need to be rebuilt besides the HFC? Raildar could be inaccurate but I've been using it to study the tracks, and it seems that there are through platforms that could be used without causing too much disruption to the main line?

Those platforms are very busy in the peaks, not only with the 4tph to/from Lea Bridge and beyond, but also with empty stock moves to/from Orient Way sidings. Then, seperately, the existing line that would be used from Lea Bridge toward the NLL conflicts with all the freight heading from the GEML to the NLL, most of the freight heading the other way, and also 18 down services in the morning peak (0700-0900) and 8 servcies in the evening peak (1726-1900). There is simply no way you could reliably squeeze through more services directly conflicting with that lot.

So you would have to rebuild the existing Overground platforms to tie in with the line to Lea Bridge, which means rebuilding all 4 platforms in new positions, regrading the lot (there is quite a height difference) changing all the track, signalling and OLE and more besides. Easily a £300m job.

 

[gsc777]

Those platforms are very busy in the peaks, not only with the 4tph to/from Lea Bridge and beyond, but also with empty stock moves to/from Orient Way sidings. Then, seperately, the existing line that would be used from Lea Bridge toward the NLL conflicts with all the freight heading from the GEML to the NLL, most of the freight heading the other way, and also 18 down services in the morning peak (0700-0900) and 8 servcies in the evening peak (1726-1900). There is simply no way you could reliably squeeze through more services directly conflicting with that lot.

So you would have to rebuild the existing Overground platforms to tie in with the line to Lea Bridge, which means rebuilding all 4 platforms in new positions, regrading the lot (there is quite a height difference) changing all the track, signalling and OLE and more besides. Easily a £300m job.

If the Stratford—Meridian Water was removed, would any of these issues be resolved?

Though journey times would increase, I imagine connectivity provided by Crossrail 2 in the future would make it more sensible for people to change at Dalston (...whatever they call it), and if people still needed to go to Stratford they could catch an NLL service there.

If trains switched tracks on the Channelsea Curve, they could use platforms 11 & 12? I appreciate that the issue of freight conflicts would still cause issues, but if, say, 2tph extended to Chingford whilst the remaining services terminated at Stratford, would it be that bad?

I'm going to go out on an ambitious idea, so appreciate that we're entering theoretical territory, and say that with the other 2tph lost from the Stratford—Meridian Water service, if they were instead connected to the Goblin at South Tottenham, and then connected to the MML just before Gospel Oak, then ran to West Hampstead and finally join the West London Orbital to Hounslow via the Dudding Hill Line? These would then terminate at Stratford, avoiding any GEML chaos (hopefully!). Not sure if this would cause a lot of MML chaos though...

 

[SynthD]

It doesn’t create enough new journeys, the only station not already one change away is Lea Bridge. It’s such a small benefit in exchange for so much risk.

Goblin at South Tottenham, and then connected to the MML just before Gospel Oak, then ran to West Hampstead and finally join the West London Orbital

Which you repeat here by crossing the whole MML on the flat.

Sometimes it’s best to use zone 1.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the Stratford—Meridian Water was removed, would any of these issues be resolved?

No, because they keep clear of Stratford Central Junction. You still have all the conflicts with freight and the GA services on the GEML.

I'm going to go out on an ambitious idea, so appreciate that we're entering theoretical territory, and say that with the other 2tph lost from the Stratford—Meridian Water service, if they were instead connected to the Goblin at South Tottenham, and then connected to the MML just before Gospel Oak, then ran to West Hampstead and finally join the West London Orbital to Hounslow via the Dudding Hill Line? These would then terminate at Stratford, avoiding any GEML chaos (hopefully!). Not sure if this would cause a lot of MML chaos though...

That (or somethiing similar) has been proposed on these pages before. Leaving aside the need for a new grade separated curve in the Tottenham area - right through the Crossrail 2 portal worksite - it would also need a hrade separated connection in the West Hampstead area, and that would have to be a tunnel. Looking loke north of s billion quid now….

 

[zwk500]

also, if nobody minds, could someone give me a quick overview of what the current NLL situation is with regards to capacity, chaos, freight etc? I was looking into what could be done with Primrose Hill and everywhere I go I see different inconsistent things being said.

Essentially full.

what would need to be rebuilt besides the HFC? Raildar could be inaccurate but I've been using it to study the tracks, and it seems that there are through platforms that could be used without causing too much disruption to the main line?

Bear in mind that the map Raildar is using for its 'Junction Maps' page is, in parts, at least from 2016. Not sure if Stratford's been updated but you can see the comments around London Bridge/Blackfriars, old Derby layout, old Oxford/Banbury layout etc.