Potential Grand Central services

[Aictos]

I've been reading up on the potential services that would have been operated by Grand Central and I have noticed some alternative routes to these proposed by them.

For example in December 2017, Grand Central announced plans to bid for a service from London Kings Cross to Cleethorpes in early 2018 for a start date of 2020 which would have involve the existing Bradford Interchange service being extended to 10 coaches from London to Doncaster then dividing with five coaches going to Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby with the other five coach continuing onto Bradford Interchange.

Now as East Coast back in June 2010 decided not to go ahead with their plans for a 2 hourly service to Lincoln Central and Grand Central decided to bid to operate the service instead calling at London Kings Cross, Grantham, Newark Northgate and Lincoln Central so why not have Grand Central put in a bid to operate a alternative route of either London Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes?

Or why not have it call London Kings Cross, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes as that would avoid the busy ECML and minimise revenue abstraction from franchised operators?

Both would be 4 return paths a day so what do you think?

 

[_toommm_]

I've been reading up on the potential services that would have been operated by Grand Central and I have noticed some alternative routes to these proposed by them.

For example in December 2017, Grand Central announced plans to bid for a service from London Kings Cross to Cleethorpes in early 2018 for a start date of 2020 which would have involve the existing Bradford Interchange service being extended to 10 coaches from London to Doncaster then dividing with five coaches going to Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby with the other five coach continuing onto Bradford Interchange.

Now as East Coast back in June 2010 decided not to go ahead with their plans for a 2 hourly service to Lincoln Central and Grand Central decided to bid to operate the service instead calling at London Kings Cross, Grantham, Newark Northgate and Lincoln Central so why not have Grand Central put in a bid to operate a alternative route of either London Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes?

Or why not have it call London Kings Cross, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes as that would avoid the busy ECML and minimise revenue abstraction from franchised operators?

Both would be 4 return paths a day so what do you think?

Peterborough to Lincoln via Spalding, plus Lincoln to Cleethorpes (via Grimsby) would be incredibly abstractive. I doubt it would get past the authorities or past EMT without objections.

Theres nothing wrong with healthy competition of course, but it wouldn't really add anything to the service currently provided (other than higher quality trains) so I suggest it wouldn't get the nod.

 

[Ianno87]

Peterborough to Lincoln via Spalding, plus Lincoln to Cleethorpes (via Grimsby) would be incredibly abstractive. I doubt it would get past the authorities or past EMT without objections.

Theres nothing wrong with healthy competition of course, but it wouldn't really add anything to the service currently provided (other than higher quality trains) so I suggest it wouldn't get the nod.

You misunderstand 'not primarily abstractive'. It comes from the new service's revenue as a whole - not from one particular service group. Robbing a bit of revenue from sporadic dogboxes won't be a big part at all.

ORR might reckon that plugging gaps in the erratic Lincolnshire service frequencies generates as much revenue as it extracts.

 

[cactustwirly]

I've been reading up on the potential services that would have been operated by Grand Central and I have noticed some alternative routes to these proposed by them.

For example in December 2017, Grand Central announced plans to bid for a service from London Kings Cross to Cleethorpes in early 2018 for a start date of 2020 which would have involve the existing Bradford Interchange service being extended to 10 coaches from London to Doncaster then dividing with five coaches going to Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby with the other five coach continuing onto Bradford Interchange.

Now as East Coast back in June 2010 decided not to go ahead with their plans for a 2 hourly service to Lincoln Central and Grand Central decided to bid to operate the service instead calling at London Kings Cross, Grantham, Newark Northgate and Lincoln Central so why not have Grand Central put in a bid to operate a alternative route of either London Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes?

Or why not have it call London Kings Cross, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln Central, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby and then Cleethorpes as that would avoid the busy ECML and minimise revenue abstraction from franchised operators?

Both would be 4 return paths a day so what do you think?

That route is very slow, so the journey time wouldn't be competitive with traveling via Doncaster/Newark

 

[Aictos]

That route is very slow, so the journey time wouldn't be competitive with traveling via Doncaster/Newark

I did give 2 options, one was via Spalding and one was via Newark Northgate.

 

[swt_passenger]

Grand Central withdrew a number of earlier applications for branches off the ECML such as Grimsby, Cleethorpes and Scunthorpe because their individual business cases didn’t stack up without the West Yorkshire services that were the only ones they really wanted. That suggests to me that the GC model is really about abstraction rather than new markets.

It’s explained in one of the many ECML reports on ORR’s website, I’ll try and find it:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/21885/2016-05-12-ecml-decision-letter.pdf
Paragraph 53 onwards refers.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Grand Central withdrew a number of earlier applications for branches off the ECML such as Grimsby, Cleethorpes and Scunthorpe because their individual business cases didn’t stack up without the West Yorkshire services that were the only ones they really wanted. That suggests to me that the GC model is really about abstraction rather than new markets.

It’s explained in one of the many ECML reports on ORR’s website, I’ll try and find it:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/21885/2016-05-12-ecml-decision-letter.pdf
Paragraph 53 onwards refers.

Isn’t that the old application? The modern is to split the existing Bradford service at Doncaster by putting it as 10 coaches from London. It would be 4 Trains per day between London and Cleethorpes from 2020.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t that the old application? The modern is to split the existing Bradford service at Doncaster by putting it as 10 coaches from London. It would be 4 Trains per day between London and Cleethorpes from 2020.

Sure. Just illustrating that they’ve tried before and stated themselves that the business case was marginal.

 

[Failed Unit]

That route is very slow, so the journey time wouldn't be competitive with traveling via Doncaster/Newark

Hard to say to be honest, Peterborough - Lincoln via Newark is about 55 minutes
Peterborough - Lincoln via Spalding is about 1h15 minutes (with all the current stops) - but the timetable has not had any attempt to be sped up since the resignalling work.

If the service did Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln then it may be possible to get this down to 1h05 mins

You could probably get it closer to 1 hour if you miss Sleaford but I don't think this would be a good move for a couple of reasons, it is a big flow itself and also it is a useful connection to Boston.

If EMT work with the operator then it could be a win-win.

For example you could have.
Cleethorpes - Lincoln - Peterborough - London
Doncaster - Lincoln - Sleaford - Boston (Maybe Skegness) so that Methringham and Ruskington still get served.

As Ian says above I can see a reasonable demand for London - Spalding as it will be just over 1 hour away from London.

Grand Central shows people are happy to have a longer journey for a direct service and if it was route via Sleaford and Spalding it would be a massive boost for both those towns.

I can't see it ever happening personally - Maybe a few extensions to the London - Lincoln service to Cleethorpes to scare of open access operators (then run it back empty to the Depot via Scunthorpe) - but even that removes the useful route knowledge retention the ECS via Gainsborough provides.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hard to say to be honest, Peterborough - Lincoln via Newark is about 55 minutes
Peterborough - Lincoln via Spalding is about 1h15 minutes (with all the current stops) - but the timetable has not had any attempt to be sped up since the resignalling work.

If the service did Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln then it may be possible to get this down to 1h05 mins

You could probably get it closer to 1 hour if you miss Sleaford but I don't think this would be a good move for a couple of reasons, it is a big flow itself and also it is a useful connection to Boston.

If EMT work with the operator then it could be a win-win.

For example you could have.
Cleethorpes - Lincoln - Peterborough - London
Doncaster - Lincoln - Sleaford - Boston (Maybe Skegness) so that Methringham and Ruskington still get served.

As Ian says above I can see a reasonable demand for London - Spalding as it will be just over 1 hour away from London.

Grand Central shows people are happy to have a longer journey for a direct service and if it was route via Sleaford and Spalding it would be a massive boost for both those towns.

I can't see it ever happening personally - Maybe a few extensions to the London - Lincoln service to Cleethorpes to scare of open access operators (then run it back empty to the Depot via Scunthorpe) - but even that removes the useful route knowledge retention the ECS via Gainsborough provides.

I didn't know the journey times would be so similar.
The joint line via Spalding, barely gets above 50mph, whilst Peterborough - Newark is mostly 125mph

 

[Failed Unit]

I didn't know the journey times would be so similar.
The joint line via Spalding, barely gets above 50mph, whilst Peterborough - Newark is mostly 125mph

Shorter distance via Spalding,

I think now it is 75mph throughout but someone can correct me on that. But from memory it is about 56 miles via Sleaford. 63 via Newark so not much in really but Lincoln - Newark isn't very fast either.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

That route is very slow, so the journey time wouldn't be competitive with traveling via Doncaster/Newark

Slow like Bradford to Doncaster via Pontefract?

Doesn't seem to put that many people off.

 

[TheBigD]

I didn't know the journey times would be so similar.
The joint line via Spalding, barely gets above 50mph, whilst Peterborough - Newark is mostly 125mph

Shorter distance via Spalding,

I think now it is 75mph throughout but someone can correct me on that. But from memory it is about 56 miles via Sleaford. 63 via Newark so not much in really but Lincoln - Newark isn't very fast either.

Max 70mph South of Spalding and 75 mph north of Spalding.

When ECML services were diverted via the Joint Line last autumn, most service were timed around 60 minutes between Lincoln and Peterborough and vv, and around 1hr40 - 1hr45 for Doncaster-Peterborough and vv. Prior to the Joint Line being upgraded, Peterborough-Doncaster took around 2hr20

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What ever happened to their Middlesbrough services? Or the GWNR proposals?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

What ever happened to their Middlesbrough services? Or the GWNR proposals?

They were rejected in 2014