Potential dispute for fine? GTR

[RedControlled]

Hello all.

I don't travel by train very often however I've encountered my first incident which resulted in a fine. I booked a ticket from Potters Bar to Hatfield on the ticket machine (at Potters Bar station around 1345) after attending an event which left me rather tired. I know Potters Bar is 1/2 stops from Hatfield but for some reason my brain was on autopilot, so I caught the train at around 1400 (1327 Letchworth - Kings Cross) and a few minutes in I realised I'm heading in the wrong direction. I got off at the next stop (Alexandra Palace) at 1413 and managed to catch the next northbound train that was heading to Hatfield (1414 to Welwyn Garden City). A guard came on at the next stop and I thought it would be best to be upfront to him about my genuine mistake and let him know why I was on this train, so I did go to him to explain my situation. Unfortunately he didn't see my side of the situation and he gave me a fine, however he was generous to allow me to travel to my intended stop without buying a new ticket.

This is the first time I've ended up in this situation, and I do take full accountability for it - it was a big lapse of judgement and I did apologise to him about it when explaining my situation.

I do unfortunately not have my ticket on me as I used it to leave the station, however I do have the fine at hand if that would be of any assistance.

Do you think there are any grounds to dispute this fine? I am OK with paying the fine as it was a mistake that I could have avoided if I double checked the train, but it would be nice to potentially reduce the costs involved. Many thanks.

Kind regards.

RedControlled.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the "fine" with any identifying details obscured?

Thank you,

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello all.

I don't travel by train very often however I've encountered my first incident which resulted in a fine. I booked a ticket from Potters Bar to Hatfield on the ticket machine (at Potters Bar station around 1345) after attending an event which left me rather tired. I know Potters Bar is 1/2 stops from Hatfield but for some reason my brain was on autopilot, so I caught the train at around 1400 (1327 Letchworth - Kings Cross) and a few minutes in I realised I'm heading in the wrong direction. I got off at the next stop (Alexandra Palace) at 1413 and managed to catch the next northbound train that was heading to Hatfield (1414 to Welwyn Garden City). A guard came on at the next stop and I thought it would be best to be upfront to him about my genuine mistake and let him know why I was on this train, so I did go to him to explain my situation. Unfortunately he didn't see my side of the situation and he gave me a fine, however he was generous to allow me to travel to my intended stop without buying a new ticket.

This is the first time I've ended up in this situation, and I do take full accountability for it - it was a big lapse of judgement and I did apologise to him about it when explaining my situation.

I do unfortunately not have my ticket on me as I used it to leave the station, however I do have the fine at hand if that would be of any assistance.

Do you think there are any grounds to dispute this fine? I am OK with paying the fine as it was a mistake that I could have avoided if I double checked the train, but it would be nice to potentially reduce the costs involved. Many thanks.

Kind regards.

RedControlled.

Was this actually a 'Penalty Fare' (£50 if paid promptly) ?

 

[Nova1]

Did you pay "on the spot"? If you did, this was a "Penalty Fare", mostly intended for situations like yours where there was a genuine mistake. If you did, this is the end of the matter and there will be no further action. The penalty was correctly issued, so they wouldn't be changing it.

 

[RedControlled]

Please can you upload the "fine" with any identifying details obscured?

Thank you,

Please find it below. If you need anymore details please let me know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2024 ==

Was this actually a 'Penalty Fare' (£50 if paid promptly) ?

It was a Penalty Fare Notice.

Did you pay "on the spot"? If you did, this was a "Penalty Fare", mostly intended for situations like yours where there was a genuine mistake. If you did, this is the end of the matter and there will be no further action. The penalty was correctly issued, so they wouldn't be changing it.

I did offer to pay on the spot however the Guard said that is not possible, and I have to do it online.

 

[Haywain]

If you need anymore details please let me know.

Can you post all of it, please.

 

[AlterEgo]

We need to see the entire notice. The notice was issued "deservedly", but we need to see the whole notice to check if there has been a procedural error which might let you appeal on other grounds.

 

[RedControlled]

Can you post all of it, please.

 

[30907]

Immediate thought: when the PF was issued you were travelling north from Ally Pally, not from Potters Bar to Finsbury Pk.
It authorises you to continue your journey to FPK, which doesn't make any sense.
As far as I can see, this means the PF was incorrectly issued, though I doubt the appeals process will be smooth.
I hope other forum members can offer more specific advice.

 

[RedControlled]

Apologies for bumping this thread.

I've sent the PFN above but have only received one reply. Just want to give it one more shot to see if it is worth appealing before paying the money.

I appreciate any and all help! Many thanks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Apologies for bumping this thread.

I've sent the PFN above but have only received one reply. Just want to give it one more shot to see if it is worth appealing before paying the money.

I appreciate any and all help! Many thanks.

Post 9 seems your best bet as a basis but you need to get your appeal wording well set out. Try writing a draft and share that here.

I think it’s always worth an appeal but you need to be prepared to go through all three stages. Do not miss the appeal deadline.

It may be a long shot but I can’t see what there is to lose by appealing.

 

[ikcdab]

I guess I'm not sure on what grounds you are appealing.
You were on the wrong train so, as you say, you were on the wrong and you should have checked the trains.
Appeals will only succeed if there is a procedural issue or if the penalty was issued incorrectly. The only possible procedural issue is the Finsbury Park quote. For unexplained reasons the guard thought you were travelling from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park. You say you weren't, but that would be very difficult to prove and in think adds all sorts of complications. It sounds very flimsy to me and doesn't change the fact that you say you made an error and got on the wrong train. This is exactly what penalty fares are designed for: to persuade you to be more careful next time.
I suggest you just pay up and move on.

 

[RedControlled]

Many thanks all.

 

[Benjwri]

I guess I'm not sure on what grounds you are appealing.
You were on the wrong train so, as you say, you were on the wrong and you should have checked the trains.
Appeals will only succeed if there is a procedural issue or if the penalty was issued incorrectly. The only possible procedural issue is the Finsbury Park quote. For unexplained reasons the guard thought you were travelling from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park. You say you weren't, but that would be very difficult to prove and in think adds all sorts of complications. It sounds very flimsy to me and doesn't change the fact that you say you made an error and got on the wrong train. This is exactly what penalty fares are designed for: to persuade you to be more careful next time.
I suggest you just pay up and move on.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The Penalty Fare has been issued entirely incorrectly. It has the wrong journey on it, which in itself should be a reason for appeal, and is easily provable as the train was travelling in the other direction.

It has also been issued under the wrong amount. The full return fare for Potters Bar Finsbury Park has been used (£15.20), whereas the regulations are clear that it must be the full single fare (£9.40 even on the incorrect route). Again this is easily provable. Regardless of if it was admitted they travelled both ways, the regulations do not allow for this.

The OP should appeal on both these factors, and in my opinion take it to the third appeal if needed. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t overturned. @RedControlled

 

[Watershed]

I wholeheartedly disagree. The Penalty Fare has been issued entirely incorrectly. It has the wrong journey on it, which in itself should be a reason for appeal, and is easily provable as the train was travelling in the other direction.

It has also been issued under the wrong amount. The full return fare for Potters Bar Finsbury Park has been used (£15.20), whereas the regulations are clear that it must be the full single fare (£9.40 even on the incorrect route). Again this is easily provable. Regardless of if it was admitted they travelled both ways, the regulations do not allow for this.

The OP should appeal on both these factors, and in my opinion take it to the third appeal if needed. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t overturned. @RedControlled

Agreed - good spot on both counts. The Penalty Fare should be overturned on appeal on these grounds; even if not at the first or second stage, the third (final) stage should hopefully succeed.

 

[RedControlled]

I wholeheartedly disagree. The Penalty Fare has been issued entirely incorrectly. It has the wrong journey on it, which in itself should be a reason for appeal, and is easily provable as the train was travelling in the other direction.

It has also been issued under the wrong amount. The full return fare for Potters Bar Finsbury Park has been used (£15.20), whereas the regulations are clear that it must be the full single fare (£9.40 even on the incorrect route). Again this is easily provable. Regardless of if it was admitted they travelled both ways, the regulations do not allow for this.

The OP should appeal on both these factors, and in my opinion take it to the third appeal if needed. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t overturned. @RedControlled

Thank you for the reply, I greatly appreciate it! Will give it a shot.

 

[RedControlled]

Apologies for bumping the post, however I have started writing my appeal but I am a bit unsure what to include. My current appeal:

"I am writing to re-appeal based on newly gathered evidence.

The PFN has been issued under the wrong amount. The full return fare for Potters Bar Finsbury Park has been used (£15.20), whereas the regulations state that it must be the full single fare (£9.40 even on the incorrect route).

The PFN also has the incorrect journey on it. It states the journey was undertaken between Potters Bar and Finsbury Park, whereas the first train had stopped at Alexandra Palace. The PFN was issued on a Northbound Service at Bounds Green."

I think it's very weak at the moment as an appeal so any help would be greatly appreciated, many thanks.

 

[MotCO]

I think you should state how much the PFN was for - it helps the reader not having to wade through all the previous correspondence. It is probably useful to quote your actual journey and the journey quoted on the PFN.

It would be useful to quote the actual regulation which states how the fare should be calculated (both the number of the regulation, and quote the relevant section verbatim).

And don't forget to quote your case number. Do you also want to state that this is your third appeal, so it should be routed to the relevant reviewer rather than just the normal clerk?

 

[RedControlled]

I think you should state how much the PFN was for - it helps the reader not having to wade through all the previous correspondence. It is probably useful to quote your actual journey and the journey quoted on the PFN.

It would be useful to quote the actual regulation which states how the fare should be calculated (both the number of the regulation, and quote the relevant section verbatim).

And don't forget to quote your case number. Do you also want to state that this is your third appeal, so it should be routed to the relevant reviewer rather than just the normal clerk?

Apologies, this is my second appeal.

I actually travelled between Potters Bar and Alexandra Palace, and managed to catch a service to Welwyn Garden City.

"
(Case number)

I am writing to re-appeal based on newly gathered evidence.

I had bought a ticket from the Potters Bar station for a single journey to Hatfield.

The PFN has been issued under the wrong amount. The full return fare for Potters Bar Finsbury Park has been used (£15.20), whereas the regulations state that it must be the full single fare (£9.40 even on the incorrect route). (Quote relevant regulations)

The PFN also has the incorrect journey on it. It states the journey was undertaken between Potters Bar and Finsbury Park, whereas I had only travelled as far as Alexandra Palace (refer to train timing images attached). The PFN was issued on a Northbound Service at Bounds Green."

Would this be suitable? Thank you for your advice as well, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[John R]

The PF notice says it was issued at New Southgate, not Bounds Green, so I would stick to that. Indeed, as you say that the inspector joined the train at the station after you boarded (which was Ally Pally, and thus New Southgate), he can’t possibly have issued it in the Bounds Green area.

 

[MotCO]

I think you need a concluding statement saying that the PFN has not been completed according to the regulations and is therefore invalid, and should be cancelled, concluding this case.

 

[Haywain]

I think for someone unfamiliar with your case your proposed letter is quite unclear, and that will not help your appeal to succeed.

 

[RedControlled]

I think for someone unfamiliar with your case your proposed letter is quite unclear, and that will not help your appeal to succeed.

Apologies, typed it on my phone in a bit of a rush.

I'll type another one up tomorrow when I get on my desktop.

 

[Haywain]

Apologies, typed it on my phone in a bit of a rush.

I'll type another one up tomorrow when I get on my desktop.

Fine, but try and stick to reasons that the PF is not valid. Anything else is a distraction.

 

[RedControlled]

Good evening, I have rewritten my appeal. Any advice would be appreciated
.

"(Case number)



I am writing to re-appeal based on newly gathered evidence.



The Penalty Fare Notice has been issued under the wrong amount. According to Regulation 9 Paragraph 1A, it is stated that:

“In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is:

(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b) if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.”



On my penalty fare I have been charged £112.70, which would suggest that a fare of £12.70 has been charged on top of the £100 penalty. However, when replicating the same times on both the National Rail Website and the Trainline website and finding the full single fare costs, both come up as £9.40 (screenshots will be attached).


(I'm just quickly interrupting to say that I've written two paragraphs and wanted to know which one would address the point Benjwri said: "It has the wrong journey on it, which in itself should be a reason for appeal, and is easily provable as the train was travelling in the other direction." Also should I include the first journey I had undertaken between Potters Bar and Alexandra Palace as I did not travel to Potters Bar, or would that weaken my case and should I leave it out?)



1. As well as that, the Penalty Fare Notice was incorrectly issued towards Finsbury Park. The Penalty Fare Notice was issued at New Southgate on the Northbound 1352 Moorgate – Welwyn Garden City on the 8th of July (photo will be attached of service).



2. As well as that, the journey on the Penalty Fare Notice was incorrectly stated as Potters Bar to Finsbury Park, however the Penalty Fare Notice was issued at New Southgate on the Northbound 1352 Moorgate – Welwyn Garden City on the 8th of July (photo of service will be attached).



Overall based on the points raised the Penalty Fare Notice has not been completed according to the regulations and therefore is invalid and should be cancelled, concluding this case. I thank you for taking your time to read my appeal.

Regards,
Name


Source used:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 (link)

National Rail Website & Trainline for ticket prices (link)"

 

[MrJeeves]

However, when replicating the same times on both the National Rail Website and the Trainline website and finding the full single fare costs, both come up as £9.40 (screenshots will be attached).

I would personally simply state...

"However, the Anytime Day Single fare between Potters Bar and Finsbury Park, route '.'/Any Permitted, is actually priced at £9.40."

...rather than talking about National Rail and Trainline.

Potentially even a link to BRFares (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PBR&dest=FPK&rte=1000&tkt=SDS) but I'm sure the PF appeal people will have access to a tool themselves which allows them to find this.

 

[MotCO]

I would include an opening paragraph setting out the basic facts of the case. The reader is unlikely to know your case (or indeed remember it amongst the hundreds they read), so just setting the scene will help.

 

[RedControlled]

I would personally simply state...

"However, the Anytime Day Single fare between Potters Bar and Finsbury Park, route '.'/Any Permitted, is actually priced at £9.40."

...rather than talking about National Rail and Trainline.

Potentially even a link to BRFares (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PBR&dest=FPK&rte=1000&tkt=SDS) but I'm sure the PF appeal people will have access to a tool themselves which allows them to find this.

I appreciate your comment, I will do that.

I would include an opening paragraph setting out the basic facts of the case. The reader is unlikely to know your case (or indeed remember it amongst the hundreds they read), so just setting the scene will help.

Here's what I included so far: "On the 8th of July I received a Penalty Fare Notice on a Great Northern Service, however I am writing to re-appeal based on newly gathered evidence. I have noticed that the Penalty Fare Notice had been issued with the incorrect journey and the incorrect fare amount."

Should I include the fact I travelled on 1327 Letchworth - Kings Cross before getting off at Alexandra Palace and then catching the Moorgate service in the introduction, or would that weaken the case and would it be best left out? Thank you, I do appreciate your help.

 

[MotCO]

I would only state the journey that is being queried.

 

[WesternLancer]

Say at end eg:

I therefore believe the penalty Fare has not been issued correctly, is not valid and should be cancelled. I would request that my Appeal is upheld.