Potential DfT/ORR Consultation On Diversionary Routes/Rail Replacement Bus Services?

[chris_in_salop]

It is difficult. That’s why we leave it to professional planners who know what they are doing. And they do a great job.

Out of curiosity, what metric is used to show whether "they do a great job"? Because if it produces a solution that at least 55% of customers hate so much that they refuse to give their custom, it suggests that someone, somewhere is not doing a "great job".

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of curiosity, what metric is used to show whether "they do a great job"?

it’s a qualitative assessment, by me.

but the measures used are efficiency metrics, both in cash and time terms, for standardised work items.

 

[Horizon22]

Quite difficult to set out how the work can be done better when nobody knows either for a weekend, a year or a lifecycle what work is actually needed.

I will maintain that Christmas Week and one weekend a year is probably enough for 12 route miles and 15 days a year sounds like rather more than what is needed.

If you ever read a route's Periodic or Weekly Operating Notice and even in a fairly normal week you will see how much is being done, yet this is normally just for minor preventative maintenance.

When you say "I will maintain" what engineering experience do you base that on? You have then said "sounds like", so could you maybe appreciate that some of the technical expertise - that you seem so quick to shoot down as being inflexible - actually understand and have assessed what is required and then pass then onto operational planners to organise this for months in advance.

Evidently there are alternatives to look at but if it will end up causing the timetable to be non-compliant, a lot more hassle, and no the time penalty is so extreme then obviously it will not be progressed. Just because currently things are the way they are does not mean that a) various other options have not be looked into and these large blocks are the "least worst option and b) that it is fixed for ever and will not change.

As an aside GTR's bus operation at Three Bridges is fairly slick now with quite a lot of additional, knowledgeable staff assisting people on and off buses in a timely manner with standby buses available should there be a significant gap in coverage due to traffic. I think one issue is that the perception of "railway replacement" normally conjures fairly negative images and this has been reinforced in culture/media but if actually thought about in a meaningful way, it does not need to be a miserable experience for passengers.

 

[RT4038]

Out of curiosity, what metric is used to show whether "they do a great job"? Because if it produces a solution that at least 55% of customers hate so much that they refuse to give their custom, it suggests that someone, somewhere is not doing a "great job".

Maintenance has to be done sometime. Inconvenient I know, but you'll just have to get used to it. Go to a country where they don't bother maintaining their railways and see what happens.

When my car is in for maintenance, there are alternatives (usually inconvenient or undesirable in one way or another). I don't do more than 55% of the things that I would have done if the car was available. Does this mean that that those doing the maintenance and arranging the alternatives are not 'doing a great job'?

 

[chris_in_salop]

Maintenance has to be done sometime. Inconvenient I know, but you'll just have to get used to it. Go to a country where they don't bother maintaining their railways and see what happens.

When my car is in for maintenance, there are alternatives (usually inconvenient or undesirable in one way or another). I don't do more than 55% of the things that I would have done if the car was available. Does this mean that that those doing the maintenance and arranging the alternatives are not 'doing a great job'?

Perhaps I didn't explain it well - I'm sure the people doing work on the front line are performing as well as they can, although I've been caught up in many shambolic bus substitutions over the years.

However few other public-facing services seem to shut down so frequently and drastically as the railway. I'm sure motorways, hospitals, airports and supermarkets also need regular maintenance. But in this new era where commuting income has collapsed, and the railway needs to attract leisure travellers out of their cars, continuing to arrange operations in such a customer-unfriendly way makes bad business sense.

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps I didn't explain it well - I'm sure the people doing work on the front line are performing as well as they can, although I've been caught up in many shambolic bus substitutions over the years.

However few other public-facing services seem to shut down so frequently and drastically as the railway. I'm sure motorways, hospitals, airports and supermarkets also need regular maintenance. But in this new era where commuting income has collapsed, and the railway needs to attract leisure travellers out of their cars, continuing to arrange operations in such a customer-unfriendly way makes bad business sense.

On the contrary, the M42 was closed for over a week at Christmas for HS2 works. National Highways are jumping on to larger more disruptive work.

 

[Class 170101]

But in this new era where commuting income has collapsed, and the railway needs to attract leisure travellers out of their cars, continuing to arrange operations in such a customer-unfriendly way makes bad business sense.

I agree with this and I'm still finding it maddening that NR think that blocking lines at weekends for more than they are open is still the right way to go. NR, in my view, are yet to realise this reality. If NR wants more access then diversionary rail routes are key to getting people to travel by rail otherwise NR needs to accept that less disruptive access should be available and expected when asked for and the access that is available is fully utilised.

 

[The Planner]

I agree with this and I'm still finding it maddening that NR think that blocking lines at weekends for more than they are open is still the right way to go. NR, in my view, are yet to realise this reality. If NR wants more access then diversionary rail routes are key to getting people to travel by rail otherwise NR needs to accept that less disruptive access should be available and expected when asked for and the access that is available is fully utilised.

As I always say, TOCs and FOCs do not have to agree to access and very often don't. They also need to play their part by being prepared to divert.

 

[Falcon1200]

However few other public-facing services seem to shut down so frequently and drastically as the railway. I'm sure motorways, hospitals, airports and supermarkets also need regular maintenance.

Not motorways, but these are the road closures planned, for just one local Council area, over just a couple of weeks:

Below is a list of works managed by the Ayrshire Roads Alliance

Carriageway Resurfacing

U739, Mauchline
Temporary road closure - 23 February to 20 March

B7023 Culzean Road, Maybole
Temporary road closure and No waiting - 7 to 25 March

B7038, Fenwick and Glebe Terrace, Fenwick
B7038 Fenwick - Temporary road closure - 7 March to 1 April

The difference with closing roads of course is that there is nearly always a diversion available, albeit sometimes causing great inconvenience; Last year the main road through my village was closed for months, not weeks, for water main replacement, meaning among other things no bus service to an entire housing estate. The diversion options open to the railway, are, for the reasons explained many times above, much fewer.

 

[Craig1122]

This might be controversial here but I'm very much in favour of longer closures just as long as it demonstrably reduces the number of smaller ones and enables multiple assets to be renewed. It's obviously much cheaper than a stop/start approach and should mean it's possible to put the resources into running a higher quality replacement operation, and in some cases might even mean that diversionary routes are more viable.

So knock out every junction that needs renewing on a given route in one hit. I'd imagine one of the biggest barriers is assets becoming life expired at different times though. With that kind of approach it might even be possible to improve reliability which should help win passengers long term.

 

[SamYeager]

So knock out every junction that needs renewing on a given route in one hit. I'd imagine one of the biggest barriers is assets becoming life expired at different times though.

Presumably this would result in a large number of assets all becoming life expired at the same time at some point in the future. It's a fair bet that there will still be other assets that require refreshing at other points as well so there would still be disruption. Heavy utilisaton of routes is "efficient" but of course results increased wear and a lack of available time in which to carry out repairs/renewals.

 

[RT4038]

Presumably this would result in a large number of assets all becoming life expired at the same time at some point in the future. It's a fair bet that there will still be other assets that require refreshing at other points as well so there would still be disruption. Heavy utilisaton of routes is "efficient" but of course results increased wear and a lack of available time in which to carry out repairs/renewals.

I should imagine that the logistics of getting equipment and materials to sites (especially by train) would be an issue if every junction on a given line was done in one blockade, quite apart from the availability of such a quantity of equipment and skilled labour all at once......

 

[Falcon1200]

So knock out every junction that needs renewing on a given route in one hit.

I understand the rationale behind that suggestion, however....

I should imagine that the logistics of getting equipment and materials to sites (especially by train) would be an issue if every junction on a given line was done in one blockade, quite apart from the availability of such a quantity of equipment and skilled labour all at once......

Indeed, it would be impossible to provide specialised staff for, for example, S&T testing, at multiple simultaneous sites.