Potential changes to Thameslink services?

[Sad Sprinter]

Those signs have been there for several years now. It also says "National Rail" not "Thameslink". Whoever operates Thameslink, it's going to be a fairly stable network now for next decade or so.

Are there any future changes we can possibly expect to Thameslink? Aside from adding the long planned Kings Lynn and Eastbourne routes.

 

[Class15]

Are there any future changes we can possibly expect to Thameslink? Aside from adding the long planned Kings Lynn and Eastbourne routes.

Hopefully they add the Kentish Town to Orpington trains back in the morning peak. So useful in the evenings, but so frustrating that there’s no morning service. As a Kentish Town commuter I’d love them as they’d be empty!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Hopefully they add the Kentish Town to Orpington trains back in the morning peak. So useful in the evenings, but so frustrating that there’s no morning service. As a Kentish Town commuter I’d love them as they’d be empty!

I’d love the Catford Loop to be quarter hourly all day again.

 

[Class15]

I’d love the Catford Loop to be quarter hourly all day again.

It really should be. 2 trains an hour down there is really poor.

 

[bobster1001]

It really should be. 2 trains an hour down there is really poor.

In an ideal world the Welwyn-Sevenoaks service would run all day in addition to the Blackfriars service. Would help both there and at the stations between Potters Bar and Ally Pally.

 

[Class15]

In an ideal world the Welwyn-Sevenoaks service would run all day in addition to the Blackfriars service. Would help both there and at the stations between Potters Bar and Ally Pally.

I’ll take the Orpington-Kentish Town thanks! But understood that ECML timetable has been worsened by the cutbacks to the Moorgate service.

 

[Baji]

I always wondered whether the Thameslink service between Peterborough to Horsham service should be extended to/start from Bognor Regis.

Peterborough to Bognor Regis
Departs Peterborough at every 24 or 54 minutes per hour

Bognor Regis to Peterborough departs Bognor Regis every 9 or 39 minutes per hour

Total Journey time would be roughly 3 hours 30 minutes

 

[bramling]

I always wondered whether the Thameslink service between Peterborough to Horsham service should be extended to/start from Bognor Regis.

Peterborough to Bognor Regis
Departs Peterborough at every 24 or 54 minutes per hour

Bognor Regis to Peterborough departs Bognor Regis every 9 or 39 minutes per hour

Total Journey time would be roughly 3 hours 30 minutes

Is it efficient to have a 12-car train serving the stations south of Horsham? At off-peak times this would be pretty inefficient.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Are there any future changes we can possibly expect to Thameslink? Aside from adding the long planned Kings Lynn and Eastbourne routes.

What was the reason for Thameslink never making it down to Eastbourne?

 

[swt_passenger]

What was the reason for Thameslink never making it down to Eastbourne?

I think the early plans for the south end of the route just had far too many branches, and eventually they decided on roughly 4 tph to 6 places was better for timetabling than low frequency excursions to a much wider area. Guildford was another destination that was widely published on proposed maps for many years.

Prior to the combined TSGN franchise starting the previous TOC, ( FCC), used some very out of date proposed service maps on their website, long overtaken by what had come out in the London and SE RUS, and then in the TSGN franchise consultation and ITT.

 

[Magdalia]

I always wondered whether the Thameslink service between Peterborough to Horsham service should be extended to/start from Bognor Regis.

Peterborough to Bognor Regis
Departs Peterborough at every 24 or 54 minutes per hour

Bognor Regis to Peterborough departs Bognor Regis every 9 or 39 minutes per hour

Total Journey time would be roughly 3 hours 30 minutes

Peterborough-Horsham is already one of the least resilient parts of Thameslink, this would further erode that resilience for little benefit. There is already good interchange between Thameslink and Arun Valley services at all of East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Horsham. The Arun Valley already has 4tph off peak with the Victoria-Portsmouth/Bognor services.

 

[Baji]

Is it efficient to have a 12-car train serving the stations south of Horsham? At off-peak times this would be pretty inefficient.

That could be the same for many other routes too. Some some routes run with longer trains but are fine with just 4 or 5 cars during off peak

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2025 ==

Peterborough-Horsham is already one of the least resilient parts of Thameslink, this would further erode that resilience for little benefit. There is already good interchange between Thameslink and Arun Valley services at all of East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Horsham. The Arun Valley already has 4tph off peak with the Victoria-Portsmouth/Bognor services.

The idea would be that the London Victoria to Portsmouth harbour would run to Brighton instead of Bognor Regis to directly link Worthing, littlehampton, Brighton and hove to Horsham and Crawley

So it would be
2tph Peterborough to Bognor Regis
2tph London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton via Horsham and Littlehampton (trains attach/split at Littlehampton). So Arun Valley still has 4tph to London, it to enable more services on other routes

 

[Magdalia]

The idea would be that the London Victoria to Portsmouth harbour would run to Brighton instead of Bognor Regis to directly link Worthing, littlehampton, Brighton and hove to Horsham and Crawley

So it would be
2tph Peterborough to Bognor Regis
2tph London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton via Horsham and Littlehampton (trains attach/split at Littlehampton). So Arun Valley still has 4tph to London, it to enable more services on other routes

Going into Littlehampton to reverse adds a big time penalty especially to Chichester and places further west. It also removes direct trains Victoria-Bognor Regis.

The time penalty would be exacerbated by having to stop the Victoria trains at the Arun Valley stations because 12 car class 700s could not stop at Billingshurst or Amberley. That's of course assuming that you can create by magic the additional class 700s that would be required to run through to/from Bognor Regis.

 

[JonathanH]

So it would be
2tph Peterborough to Bognor Regis
2tph London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton via Horsham and Littlehampton (trains attach/split at Littlehampton). So Arun Valley still has 4tph to London, it to enable more services on other routes

That would somewhat slow down the connections between Chichester and London

 

[PGAT]

Going into Littlehampton to reverse adds a big time penalty especially to Chichester and places further west. It also removes direct trains Victoria-Bognor Regis.

The time penalty would be exacerbated by having to stop the Victoria trains at the Arun Valley stations because 12 car class 700s could not stop at Billingshurst or Amberley. That's of course assuming that you can create by magic the additional class 700s that would be required to run through to/from Bognor Regis.

Why not? 12 car 377s can stop there just fine

 

[Magdalia]

Why not? 12 car 377s can stop there just fine

Differences in the way that SDO works, and DDA access. The DDA compliant coaches in a class 700/1 are coaches 6 and 7, and SDO is the front x coaches, so Amberley platforms are not long enough to get the DDA compliant coaches on the platform. At Billingshurst the issue would be fouling the level crossing.

 

[Baji]

Differences in the way that SDO works, and DDA access. The DDA compliant coaches in a class 700/1 are coaches 6 and 7, and SDO is the front x coaches, so Amberley platforms are not long enough to get the DDA compliant coaches on the platform. At Billingshurst the issue would be fouling the level crossing.

Thats strange because I remember some Thameslink used to run some additional peak services to Littlehampton with the 12 carriages class 700 and it would stop at West Worthing, Durington on Sea and Goring by Sea and these stations could only accommodate 6 carriages (5 at goring by Sea).

 

[NCT]

You don't want to send Thameslink services too far as as you end up running out of Class 700s to run that eventual 24tph service.

The Class 700s were procured for a specific purpose and their use should stick to that purpose.

 

[Minstral25]

I always wondered whether the Thameslink service between Peterborough to Horsham service should be extended to/start from Bognor Regis.

Peterborough to Bognor Regis
Departs Peterborough at every 24 or 54 minutes per hour

Bognor Regis to Peterborough departs Bognor Regis every 9 or 39 minutes per hour

Total Journey time would be roughly 3 hours 30 minutes

Why do you want to add the 12-15 minute penalty for going via Redhill onto Bognor Passengers and why do you want Redhill passengers to have to stand all the way into London for a good portion of the day which happened when the Arun Valley services called at Redhill.

Good way to cut passenger numbers though.

 

[jon0844]

In an ideal world the Welwyn-Sevenoaks service would run all day in addition to the Blackfriars service. Would help both there and at the stations between Potters Bar and Ally Pally.

There's rumours of the Sevenoaks services running from WGC on Saturdays in the future, which makes me assume they must also be considering running them all day and not just the peaks.

 

[bramling]

There's rumours of the Sevenoaks services running from WGC on Saturdays in the future, which makes me assume they must also be considering running them all day and not just the peaks.

I guess the Moorgate to Welwyn service being 2tph would make that easier to justify, as it would simply represent a return to the former off-peak 4tph. It does leave the 717 fleet somewhat under-utilised though.

 

[Baji]

You don't want to send Thameslink services too far as as you end up running out of Class 700s to run that eventual 24tph service.

They could do that by merging services.

For example, the Bedford to Brighton service could call at Norwood Junction, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and horley.

The Bedford to Three Bridges services could run between Bedford and East Croydon calling at stations via Forest Hill. (I know many stations have short platforms but I’m sure that won’t be a problem unless you swap 8 cars.

Gatwick Airport would still have 6 Thameslink services per hour with also many other southern services to run to London Victoria.

This could allow for more services to run or for some services to be extended. I thought in order to create more services, you need to merge more or there are some trade offs needed to be made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

Why do you want to add the 12-15 minute penalty for going via Redhill onto Bognor Passengers and why do you want Redhill passengers to have to stand all the way into London for a good portion of the day which happened when the Arun Valley services called at Redhill.

Good way to cut passenger numbers though.

Journey time on Thameslink services between London Bridge and Horsham is 1 hour 10 mins (Monday to Friday). On Sunday, the Thameslink services between London Bridge and Horsham also calls at Norwood Junction, Purley, Earlswood, Salfords yet journey time is 1 hour 11 mins.
the service would be 12 cars, so I don’t get why they would be standing especially off peak?

 

[Minstral25]

Journey time on Thameslink services between London Bridge and Horsham is 1 hour 10 mins (Monday to Friday). On Sunday, the Thameslink services between London Bridge and Horsham also calls at Norwood Junction, Purley, Earlswood, Salfords yet journey time is 1 hour 11 mins.
the service would be 12 cars, so I don’t get why they would be standing especially off peak?

That 1 hour 10 mins already includes stops at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Redhill and Horley. However, that time already includes timing breaks to allow extra calls at Earlswood and Salfords when the 9R (Three Bridges - Bedford) services are withdrawn.

In any case you should look at the East Croydon to Horsham times as the London Bridge times are not representative - 1C's originally from Victoria take 34 minutes (calling at GTW/TBD & CRW only, whereas the Thameslink takes 53 minutes calling at MHM/CDS/RDH/HOR/GTW/TBD/CRW/IFI/LVN on the way.

So, extending Thameslink to Bognor means adding 19 minutes to journey times for the people of Bognor.

Also, prior to 2015 the 12 coach trains that used to ply the "via Redhill" from Arun Valley were always packed on arrival at Redhill with all seats taken - COVID or not I would expect the trains to be equally full and no seats available from Redhill after the change.

They could do that by merging services.

For example, the Bedford to Brighton service could call at Norwood Junction, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley.

The Bedford to Three Bridges services could run between Bedford and East Croydon calling at stations via Forest Hill. (I know many stations have short platforms but I’m sure that won’t be a problem unless you swap 8 cars.

Gatwick Airport would still have 6 Thameslink services per hour with also many other southern services to run to London Victoria.

There is a reason the routes are as they are - there was a massive debate up to the 2018 change about the best service organisation. The current timetable keeps routes from getting in the way with each other - your suggestions whilst valid ideas would probably cause more disruption, which is why those decisions were not taken in 2018.

For example, Redhill not having a Brighton route service keeps the Brighton train away from crossing from slow to fast lines south of Gatwick. Which is also why the Horsham train comes through Redhill as it is then already on the slow lines which is the same side as the Horsham route split.