Potential Airport Links (Semi-Fantasy Thread)

[TheGrew]

Hi Everyone
Today I was thinking about something that was mentioned in another thread about building a chord from Royston towards Stansted Airport, which got me thinking how feasible would it be to build a Cross London Airport train network.

My proposed routes would be these:

Gatwick-Luton (as is already done by Thameslink) however I would aim to ditch the non stop services out of Victoria and instead run services semi-fast from Gatwick calling at East Croydon, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras, Luton Airport

Gatwick-Stansted calling at East Croydon, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras, Letchworth, Stansted

Luton-Stansted (along rebuilt E-W rail assuming option connecting near Hitchin)
Calling at Bedford, Sandy, Letchworth, Stansted

I figure that in addition to Crossrail providing a regular connection from Farringdon to Heathrow and London City that this would allow much easier connections between the airports than exist at the moment.

I would probably suggest using something similar to the Class 395s (running in 12 car during the peak) on the ECML leg as they are capable of hitting line speed. But can operate on 3rd rail network as required south of Farringdon. Whilst using something similar to the 379 from Luton to Stansted.

My plan would be to run 2tph on each route (creating a 4tph from Gatwick to London). My main concerns would be capacity on the ECML (mainly due to Digswell) and on the BML between London Bridge and East Croydon (south of East Croydon it would replace the current Gatwick Express Service).

Anyone as I mentioned in the thread title this is just some fun to think about and I am curious to know what other people think of the idea.

 

[Fred26]

Hi Everyone
Today I was thinking about something that was mentioned in another thread about building a chord from Royston towards Stansted Airport, which got me thinking how feasible would it be to build a Cross London Airport train network.

My proposed routes would be these:

Gatwick-Luton (as is already done by Thameslink) however I would aim to ditch the non stop services out of Victoria and instead run services semi-fast from Gatwick calling at East Croydon, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras, Luton Airport

Gatwick-Stansted calling at East Croydon, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras, Letchworth, Stansted

Luton-Stansted (along rebuilt E-W rail assuming option connecting near Hitchin)
Calling at Bedford, Sandy, Letchworth, Stansted

I figure that in addition to Crossrail providing a regular connection from Farringdon to Heathrow and London City that this would allow much easier connections between the airports than exist at the moment.

I would probably suggest using something similar to the Class 395s (running in 12 car during the peak) on the ECML leg as they are capable of hitting line speed. But can operate on 3rd rail network as required south of Farringdon. Whilst using something similar to the 379 from Luton to Stansted.

My plan would be to run 2tph on each route (creating a 4tph from Gatwick to London). My main concerns would be capacity on the ECML (mainly due to Digswell) and on the BML between London Bridge and East Croydon (south of East Croydon it would replace the current Gatwick Express Service).

Anyone as I mentioned in the thread title this is just some fun to think about and I am curious to know what other people think of the idea.

Why Letchworth? Stevenage or even Hitchin would be better surely.

 

[philjo]

I still think E-W link would be best via Luton airport (station directly by the airport albeit in a tunnel) and Stevenage. to link to Stansted it would run via Hertford, Harlow & Bishops Stortford which also links those major towns together.

 

[BananaRepublic]

There's a rather large flaw in your dream.
There is almost no demand for travel between these airports.
Such links would serve no purpose.


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[joeykins82]

Your proposed Gatwick-Luton service is just taking St Albans out of the existing stopping pattern of Bedford-Brighton trains which wouldn't save much time and would cause great inconvenience to thousands of people on one of the busiest London commuter routes as well as losing a key source of revenue.

Gatwick-Stanstead although indirect is step-free with only one direct connecting tube journey when changing at St Pancras & Tottenham Hale, and will be step-free from Victoria-Tottenham Hale or Farringdon-Liverpool Street from 2018. The infrastructure costs and skewed service loading (extra Brighton Main Line services being spread across more routes north of London) wouldn't be justifiable.

Luton-Stanstead direct services aren't realistic without disproportionately expensive engineering or inefficient reversing service patterns. I think that there is viable demand for East-West rail services especially with improving access to Luton & Stanstead airports, but I don't think that a service which links them is strictly necessary.

 

[TheGrew]

Why Letchworth? Stevenage or even Hitchin would be better surely.

Assuming the Northern E-W route was used the Chord would be North of Hitchin, the idea of Stopping at Letchworth was for a potential interchange with the E-W route, though I appreciate it is not required. Perhaps a better stopping pattern would be to stop at Stevenage then run fast to Stansted, and run the E-W route stopping at the usual semi fast (Letchworth & Royston) destinations.

I still think E-W link would be best via Luton airport (station directly by the airport albeit in a tunnel) and Stevenage. to link to Stansted it would run via Hertford, Harlow & Bishops Stortford which also links those major towns together.

Agreed, I think this would be the best route to take. However I think the northern one is perhaps more likely.

There's a rather large flaw in your dream.
There is almost no demand for travel between these airports.
Such links would serve no purpose.

I would expect that to begin with the main flows would be to and from London. However I think there is a market for improving connectivity between these airports to make it easier to interchange between them, so they can function more tightly.

Your proposed Gatwick-Luton service is just taking St Albans out of the existing stopping pattern of Bedford-Brighton trains which wouldn't save much time and would cause great inconvenience to thousands of people on one of the busiest London commuter routes as well as losing a key source of revenue.

Granted, my stopping patterns were a suggestion and St Albans could easily be added. I appreciate this service is already covered by Bedford-Brighton my suggestion would be more appealing/suitable rolling stock to encorage modal shift.

Gatwick-Stanstead although indirect is step-free with only one direct connecting tube journey when changing at St Pancras & Tottenham Hale, and will be step-free from Victoria-Tottenham Hale or Farringdon-Liverpool Street from 2018. The infrastructure costs and skewed service loading (extra Brighton Main Line services being spread across more routes north of London) wouldn't be justifiable.

I appreciate for traveller not carrying much that using the Victoria line is fine, however the market I would suggest we should be hitting is people carrying alot of baggage and making their interchange as simple as possible.
As for Brighton Main Line loadings what about the Suggested Horsham-Cambridge Service as part of Thameslink 2000?

Luton-Stanstead direct services aren't realistic without disproportionately expensive engineering or inefficient reversing service patterns. I think that there is viable demand for East-West rail services especially with improving access to Luton & Stanstead airports, but I don't think that a service which links them is strictly necessary.

I think this depends more on the route chosen for E-W rail.

 

[swt_passenger]

... However I think there is a market for improving connectivity between these airports to make it easier to interchange between them, so they can function more tightly.

Show your evidence for this please.

Why might a real (rather than hypothetical) passenger fly into Gatwick and out of Luton, or vice versa?

Or into Stansted and out of Luton?

I suggest there is no-one doing this routinely.

 

[Eagle]

I notice you haven't considered Heathrow in this. I'm pretty sure the largest flow between airports will be Gatwick to Heathrow. And there's a fairly obvious route between the two (namely the route VXC took via Kensington Olympia).

 

[kylemore]

Luton-Stansted (along rebuilt E-W rail assuming option connecting near Hitchin)
..

Sorry my knowledge of this area ain't good - how far apart are they, what would be the journey time?
Is there the potential to regard them as the same airport/hub as a rival to Heathrow?
Is there potential for less controversial expansion at Luton/Stansted then Heathrow?

 

[ffm]

It is bad enough transferring between termini. An hour/two in a train between airports? No way this would be of any attraction to airline passengers at all. Not a fantasy, more a nightmare. If an airport is to be a 'hub' it has to offer internal transfers from one flight to another and baggage seamlessly moved from the arriving aircraft to the departing one. No amount of dreaming will change that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Granted, my stopping patterns were a suggestion and St Albans could easily be added. I appreciate this service is already covered by Bedford-Brighton my suggestion would be more appealing/suitable rolling stock to encorage modal shift.

Given that the Thameslink core and routes approaching it is and will continue to be full at the important parts of the day, which of the existing Thameslink cross London services would make way for these trains?

 

[BananaRepublic]

I would expect that to begin with the main flows would be to and from London. However I think there is a market for improving connectivity between these airports to make it easier to interchange between them, so they can function more tightly.

Show your evidence for this please.
Why might a real (rather than hypothetical) passenger fly into Gatwick and out of Luton, or vice versa?
Or into Stansted and out of Luton?
I suggest there is no-one doing this routinely.

....An hour/two in a train between airports? No way this would be of any attraction to airline passengers at all. Not a fantasy, more a nightmare.......

The replies above are spot on. There is no demand for making flight connections across these airports and nobody in their right mind would do it voluntarily.
If a passenger cannot get a connection through the same airport (preferably through the same terminal), then they will look at booking through a different airport hub.
There's also the immigration aspect. International connecting passengers normally stay "airside" and do not enter the country. If they had to transfer to another airport then they would have enter the country and then leave again, adding further delay and possible complication to the process.
Just contemplating this idea is quite frankly ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure the largest flow between airports will be Gatwick to Heathrow.

Those are the only London airports with a substantial amount of connecting passengers, individually. However there is only a small (and undesirable) market for passengers to transfer between them.



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[johnnychips]

Those are the only London airports [Gatwick-Heathrow and vv] with a substantial amount of connecting passengers, individually. However there is only a small (and undesirable) market for passengers to transfer between them.

.

Quite. Every now and again when planning flights from Manchester using Opodo it throws up a transfer between the two airports allowing a lot of time, stating it's at your own expense; and as stated you would have to check out and carry your own bags then go through security etc again. What a palaver!

Will be irrelevant as BA are pulling LGW-MAN anyway.

 

[NSE]

Also, I don't think 395's would be suitable stock, as the high speed on the ECML would only be used for a small percentage of the journey, and also, if they are to (inevitably) double up as thameslink commuter trains, the door layout on 395's is naff for such high frequency boarding and alighting is it not? Also would they be mechanically suited to the stop start nature of the core?

 

[Clip]

High speed line from Manston to Abbey Wood to connect and go through Crossrail.

 

[D365]

Stansted to Huntingdon via the Busway on train-buses Or bolt some rails on top of the concrete

 

[Eagle]

Stansted to Huntingdon via the Busway on train-buses

Trainbuses?

/obligatory

 

[D365]

Could you fit tyres?

 

[transmanche]

Gatwick-Stansted calling at East Croydon, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras, Letchworth, Stansted

How about this instead? The same route as far as St Pancras; then via Kentish Town Junction to reach the Tottenham & Hampstead (GOBLIN), continuing as far as a rebuilt Tottenham North Junction to access Tottenham Hale station - then routed as per Stansted Express.

 

[brianthegiant]

I agree with most responders that potential rail journeys between airports in the south east are going to be limited except maybe 'Heathwick'.
The journeys 'we' should be trying to capture are
1) domestic flights where feasible to be displaced with high speed rail.
2) journeys between airports and a.homes; b: meeting venues; c: tourist destinations

to tackle 1a you need to compare car & rail journey times between significant airports and major populations and where attractive rail routes can be offered with minimal additions to existing infrastructure.
eg
Heathrow to towns North / South / West
Birmingham International - Eastwards
East Midlands - anywhere
Stansted - anywhere
etc

 

[Duxford]

How about this instead? The same route as far as St Pancras; then via Kentish Town Junction to reach the Tottenham & Hampstead (GOBLIN), continuing as far as a rebuilt Tottenham North Junction to access Tottenham Hale station - then routed as per Stansted Express.

Way back in the sixties (pre Roskill commission) this was the preferred route to provide a rail service to London's third airport. British Railways as was even ran demonstration trains which were filled with protesters (including my parents) trying to put a stop to all development at Stansted.

They were that successful that it took another 15 years before Stansted was developed and the railway landscape was then very different, not least being that Liverpool Street had been cleaned up and was now presentable.

Looking at Google maps this route is feasible still - just, but as other posters have said I can't see any justification in this link unless we have sealed trains to create a virtual air-side between the two airports.

 

[BananaRepublic]

......as other posters have said I can't see any justification in this link unless we have sealed trains to create a virtual air-side between the two airports.

Which is never going to happen. Even if it did, who would choose to make a connection via an airport/city, where you had to get on a train to get to another airport miles away, with all that extra hassle and additional time involved?
Then there are questions about what happens with luggage, what happens if a train breaks down, or worst, has to be evacuated en-route.

It's all academic because there is no requirement or demand for such links.


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[transmanche]

How about this instead? The same route as far as St Pancras; then via Kentish Town Junction to reach the Tottenham & Hampstead (GOBLIN), continuing as far as a rebuilt Tottenham North Junction to access Tottenham Hale station - then routed as per Stansted Express.

\but as other posters have said I can't see any justification in this link unless we have sealed trains to create a virtual air-side between the two airports.

Well it was a semi-flippant suggestion. But as we already have direct trains between Gatwick Airport and Luton Airport, why not between Gatwick Airport and Stansted Airport?

There was talk a few years ago about a service between Heathrow Airport and St Pancras. Adding a Gatwick-Stansted service would have turned St Pancras into a hub to access high-speed trains and airport services.

 

[joeykins82]

The fact that the Thameslink route serves both Luton and Gatwick airports is (I would guess) coincidental rather than by design; I doubt that there's more than a tiny fraction of journeys on the services which are made through from one airport to the other. Any spending on airport transport links need to be focussed on linking more communities to airports rather than linking the airports themselves together.

 

[LE Greys]

I notice you haven't considered Heathrow in this. I'm pretty sure the largest flow between airports will be Gatwick to Heathrow. And there's a fairly obvious route between the two (namely the route VXC took via Kensington Olympia).

Remembering this is a fantasy thread, how about the ultimate airport route that includes this:

Glasgow Airport-Brighton
Glasgow Airport - Glasgow Gorbals - Glasgow Crossrail - Falkirk High - Forth Bridge Junction South Chord - Gorgar - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley - Berwick - Newcastle Central (for Metro to Newcastle Airport) - Sunderland - Hartlepool - Teesside Airport - Darlington Bank Top (reverse) - York - Leeds (for bus link to Leeds-Bradford Airport) - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham New Street (reverse) - Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Banbury - Oxford - Reading - Colnbrook Jcn West Curve - Heathrow Terminal 5 - Airtrack - Staines - Woking - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick Airport - Three Bridges - Brighton

OK, this takes it to extremes, but the Airtrack/Colnbrook section ought to work. As might linking Heathrow Express and Stansted Express end-on via Crossrail (although it means more tunnelling at Stratford).

Another possibility would be extending the Frome-Radstock reconnection to Bristol Airport, with a link to the main line west of there.

 

[Bald Rick]

The fact that the Thameslink route serves both Luton and Gatwick airports is (I would guess) coincidental rather than by design; I doubt that there's more than a tiny fraction of journeys on the services which are made through from one airport to the other. Any spending on airport transport links need to be focussed on linking more communities to airports rather than linking the airports themselves together.

Agree entirely.

Although there are quite a few easyjet staff who do LTN-LTN-GTW-LGW (if you'll pardon the IATA / NR mash up) for work purposes - their jobs requiring them to work out of both airports.

 

[biggus]

LGW to LHR would connect more than just the airports. Public transport between most of sussex and LHR is so slow and expensive that most people drive and a taxi is often cost effective. Despite its cost and horrid customer service, many sussex people take the bus from gatwick to reach LHR. Plenty of suppressed demand for a train service here, not to mention people transferring flights.

Since this is a fantasy thread, i want a curve from the BML at CLJ to the line that serves Feltham, and reinstatement of the old line that ran North from FEL extended into the existing heathrow stations.

Regarding demand for connections between these other airports mentioned, it would be informative to consider whether there are currently any coach services between them.

 

[transmanche]

Regarding demand for connections between these other airports mentioned, it would be informative to consider whether there are currently any coach services between them.

Of course the market for a Gatwick to Stansted would not be limited to just people transferring between the two airports. It would also be of use to people south of the river who want/need to travel to Stansted Airport.

As mentioned before; trains already run between Gatwick and Luton airports and they seem pretty busy(!). But I doubt many people are actually travelling from one airport to the other.

 

[LE Greys]

Of course the market for a Gatwick to Stansted would not be limited to just people transferring between the two airports. It would also be of use to people south of the river who want/need to travel to Stansted Airport.

As mentioned before; trains already run between Gatwick and Luton airports and they seem pretty busy(!). But I doubt many people are actually travelling from one airport to the other.

The main advantage of any of these, Thameslink, Crossrail or this link, is that it distributes airport passengers much more effectively throughout London rather than putting all the strain on Paddington/Victoria/Liverpool Street/St Pancras. Both business passengers and tourists would undoubtedly appreciate a service that avoids a busy main line terminus and provides better links to where they are going.

 

[TheGrew]

Yeah one of my thoughts is that you can then reach any of the Big 4 from Farringdon allowing a theoretically more straight forward interchange.