Post-Privatisation strongest brands

[Sad Sprinter]

Inspired by the NSE thread. What if any of the post-privatisation TOC brands are still referred to or were referred to the longest after demise? In this neck of the woods it’s only South West Trains which is still spoken of. I believe Avanti replaced Virgin pretty quickly. I still refer to Greater Anglia as First Great Eastern but I don’t think anyone else does so.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I suspect Virgin was the strongest brand in the wider public's awareness, because it already existed in other sectors and Branson was a well known face.

Of the purely railway brands, I think GNER became well established quite quickly and I heard normals referring to it a fair bit after its demise

Of those that exist today, I'd say Scotrail is maybe the strongest brand, albeit its not private sector of course

 

[A S Leib]

Was Chiltern ever publicly named M40 Trains, or has the former been its name continuously since privatisation?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I suspect Virgin was the strongest brand in the wider public's awareness, because it already existed in other sectors and Branson was a well known face.

Of the purely railway brands, I think GNER became well established quite quickly and I heard normals referring to it a fair bit after its demise

Of those that exist today, I'd say Scotrail is maybe the strongest brand, albeit its not private sector of course

Yes I still want to say GNER as well from time to time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2025 ==

Was Chiltern ever publicly named M40 Trains, or has the former been its name continuously since privatisation?

It’s certainly never had M40 trains branding

 

[The exile]

It’s certainly never had M40 trains branding

Fairly certain it’s been branded Chiltern (or “Thames and…”) since the inception of NSE route branding.

 

[150219]

Fairly certain it’s been branded Chiltern (or “Thames and…”) since the inception of NSE route branding.

It's always been Chiltern Railways since privatisation. To the best of my knowledge, the only time I'd ever seen M40 Railways displayed publicly was at Marylebone.

Strong initial branding was South West Trains (as the first privatised TOC) and GNER as previously mentioned.

ScotRail, Gatwick Express and Merseyrail carried their branding over from BR says, so they were already established.

 

[fwsmVor]

GWR and LNER are strong enough* that it'd be stupid marketing-wise for GBR to dump the brands. The strategy of "cosplay a pre-'48 company" seems hit or miss, since Southern and LNWR have no such loyalty. They're forgetting the other part: "and be reliable".

* So strong that I'd bet 99% of normal people think old LNER's livery was red and old GWR was green all over.

GNER was probably so strong because they made up a fictional Big Four and cosplayed that, come to think of it.

 

[Strathclyder]

Naturally, it's ScotRail that gets my vote. It's been in the public sector for a few years now, yes, but let's not forget that's where the brand/name started back in 1983.

Since this thread is explicitly about the strongest/most cohesive branding/livery of post-privatisation franchises, my vote is for the National Express era of ScR (1997-2004) if I had to choose between the 3 of them. Not everyone's cup of tea and it did take a few elements from the BR era (not a bad thing ofc as long as it's done right) - notably the updated Swoosh logo, which is still one of my all-time fave logos from any franchise, fight me lol - but you'd honestly be hard-pressed mistaking it for anything else.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Avanti will be forgotten as soon as GBR takes over.
Virgin (at least on the WCML) will stay in the memory, whatever structure GBR has.
GWR and LNER are just Big-4 brand throwbacks, with the latter in particular having nothing like the scope of the original.
Scotrail, TfW and Merseyrail also look like persisting into the GBR era.
Northern might last if GBR keeps a combined operation, but they could equally split it NE/NW or into the mayoral zones.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Avanti will be forgotten as soon as GBR takes over.
Virgin (at least on the WCML) will stay in the memory, whatever structure GBR has.
GWR and LNER are just Big-4 brand throwbacks, with the latter in particular having nothing like the scope of the original.
Scotrail, TfW and Merseyrail also look like persisting into the GBR era.
Northern might last if GBR keeps a combined operation, but they could equally split it NE/NW or into the mayoral zones.

Northern should go:

Manchester suburban
Network North West
Leeds/Sheffield suburban
West Yorkshire NSE type thing
Send Nottingham to Leeds over to EMR
Newcastle suburban

 

[A S Leib]

Northern should go:

Manchester suburban
Network North West

Where does the distinction lie? If e.g. Crewe and Stoke to Manchester end up as Manchester suburban, and given that they make up e.g. the majority of Northern Wilmslow services, I'd argue that they should, that doesn't leave many for the latter group, especially if Merseyrail moves towards Wigan and Preston and if Settle and Tyne Valley are included with Leeds or the North East instead.

Leeds/Sheffield suburban

I wouldn't call Scarborough or even Hull a Sheffield suburban route, but I'm not sure where else it would go.

West Yorkshire NSE type thing
Send Nottingham to Leeds over to EMR

Lincoln to Leeds as well?

Newcastle suburban

That would consist of two hourly routes (Hexham and Morpeth) and one route with 2tph (Ashington); I'm guessing that would include all Northern Newcastle and Middlesbrough routes?

Edit: I think one of the only somewhat-cohesive ways to split up Northern would be in three; Yorkshire, North West and North East.

I'd put the Hope Valley with NW, due to Buxton and Glossop facing towards Manchester and, even just east of New Mills, there's 5000 more passengers annually to Manchester than Sheffield. Only Bentham and Carnforth on the Bowland line have more passengers to Lancaster than Leeds, and there's little point in having Carlisle services separate from all other local routes through Shipley so Leeds – Carlisle and Lancaster (/ Morecambe) would be with Yorkshire.

I'm less sure about Calder Valley routes. York – Blackpool North and Leeds – Victoria spend most of their length in Yorkshire, Leeds – Wigan Wallgate's around evenly balanced, and Leeds – Chester spends longer in the North West, but I don't think they should be split up.

 

[driverd]

Naturally, it's ScotRail that gets my vote. It's been in the public sector for a few years now, yes, but let's not forget that's where the brand/name started back in 1983.

Since this thread is explicitly about the strongest/most cohesive branding/livery of post-privatisation franchises, my vote is for the National Express era of ScR (1997-2004) if I had to choose between the 3 of them. Not everyone's cup of tea and it did take a few elements from the BR era (not a bad thing ofc as long as it's done right) - notably the updated Swoosh logo, which is still one of my all-time fave logos from any franchise, fight me lol - but you'd honestly be hard-pressed mistaking it for anything else.

I'm terribly sorry but I find NX Scotrail completely forgettable. To me, it starts with bland livery that didn't seem to have even remote significance to the area it served (bar the name), a colour pallette that had nothing new/bold/exciting or even especially cohesive about it, and a livery that looked incomplete, especially on the 2 car units, where one vehicle had a swoosh and the other just lines.

The current Saltire livery, however, I think ticks all your boxes. It's memorable, distinctive, unique and smart - not to mention unmistakably Scottish. You guys north of the border, in many many ways including the brand, really are spoilt when it comes to having a very well put together railway that does make me awfully jealous!

Northern should go:

Manchester suburban
Network North West
Leeds/Sheffield suburban
West Yorkshire NSE type thing
Send Nottingham to Leeds over to EMR
Newcastle suburban

Goodness me, that's one heck of a lot of operators and brands. I can't understand why you'd do that - currently northern seems to be working the best RRNE/NW has ever been. Partially, thats down to an internal structure that resembles the above, but a big part of it is all about having one cohesive railway and the ability to make economies of scale on fleet with a homogeneous brand. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[Taunton]

GWR and LNER are just Big-4 brand throwbacks, with the latter in particular having nothing like the scope of the original.

Scotrail, TfW and Merseyrail also look like persisting into the GBR era.

GWR of course goes right back to 1833, and is far and away the longest running of any railway brands. Operators still can't let it go (the same applied in the 1950s-60s in BR days!), and every reincarnation of privatisation somehow keeps the name. Traction of all types being dark green just adds to it. I'm surprised at least one Class 800 has not been turned out in chocolate and cream - surely it will come again some day.

ScotRail as a brand came from back in BR days of the late 1970s (possibly a Chris Green invention?), and nowadays is a standard term in Scotland for any rail activity, even those provided by other organisations.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Southern is a strong brand - it's been in existence since 2003 (and the colour scheme and livery had a soft-launch as "South Central" in 2001, when Govia bought out the remainder of Connex's franchise period).

Thameslink is also a strong brand, but it existed before privatisation.

 

[43096]

Naturally, it's ScotRail that gets my vote. It's been in the public sector for a few years now, yes, but let's not forget that's where the brand/name started back in 1983.

Since this thread is explicitly about the strongest/most cohesive branding/livery of post-privatisation franchises, my vote is for the National Express era of ScR (1997-2004) if I had to choose between the 3 of them. Not everyone's cup of tea and it did take a few elements from the BR era (not a bad thing ofc as long as it's done right) - notably the updated Swoosh logo, which is still one of my all-time fave logos from any franchise, fight me lol - but you'd honestly be hard-pressed mistaking it for anything else.

I’m not sure ScotRail counts as a post-privatisation brand - it’s more a BR brand that has survived privatisation, like Freightliner.

 

[Mat17]

I think TPE is a strong brand, probably for the wrong reasons though... i.e. how poor it was a few years back.

 

[Iskra]

I think TPE is a strong brand, probably for the wrong reasons though... i.e. how poor it was a few years back.

It has come along way though, and they have lots of shiny new trains which is probably how the general public decides if TOC is any good or not!

 

[Taunton]

It has come along way though, and they have lots of shiny new trains which is probably how the general public decides if TOC is any good or not!

I don't think so. The key thing is whether the service is any good or not, and then ... whether they usually get a seat or not. That trumps any understanding of when the train was built. For some reason rail management, and indeed enthusiasts, seem to think that second point is somehow not important ...

 

[Rescars]

I'm surprised at least one Class 800 has not been turned out in chocolate and cream - surely it will come again some day.

And why not? It wouldn't be the first unit on the GWR to wear chocolate and cream. Some older travellers might confuse the livery of course and be disappointed by the lack of Pullman service!

 

[Tetragon213]

And why not? It wouldn't be the first unit on the GWR to wear chocolate and cream. Some older travellers might confuse the livery of course and be disappointed by the lack of Pullman service!

I do think more TOCs should take a page from LNER's book and paint a few units in special "heritage" type liveries, as was done with quite a few HSTs before their demise.

Seeing a Class 800 in Chocolate and Cream would certainly be "interesting"! Though I do rather like the current throwback to Brunswick Green.

 

[450.emu]

More a part of the London Overground, I'm sure more people refer to the GOBLIN rather than it's new moniker, the Suffragette line...

 

[Taunton]

Goblins are not politically correct, though ...!

If you want the strongest rail brand of all, it has to be the Underground. The majority of it is not, but the public like the name. No Metro or Subway for us. The individual lines are pretty strong in memory as well, even Circle Line, which has about 50 metres of its own tracks. I've quite regularly heard apologies from those, particularly living in south London, that "I'm afraid we're not on the Underground".

 

[norbitonflyer]

Seeing a Class 800 in Chocolate and Cream would certainly be "interesting"! Though I do rather like the current throwback to Brunswick Green.

Very dull, and not authentic. The original GWR painted all coaching stock, including DMUs like this one, in chocolate & Cream.

 

[yorksrob]

Virgin Trains for me.

It had its upsides and downsides but the brand sticks in the memory. It was good during disruption when they handed out Virgin cola !

 

[Taunton]

Very dull, and not authentic. The original GWR painted all coaching stock, including DMUs like this one, in chocolate & Cream.

To be precise they were not DMUs as they had no multiple working connections. They did have buffers, couplings and vacuum hoses, but that was for the attachment of vans or an extra hauled carriage, which they had to run round at the terminus.

There was one final incarnation, with the last two such railcars built, which did have multiple working and just one cab each car, to run as a pair. It effectively formed the prototype for the later Yellow Diamond (and still later Blue Square) controls, being devised for the GWR by the same engineering company, Walker of Wigan.

 

[frankmoh]

I know this is cheating but Southeastern has remained the strongest given that every form of it from 1982 to now has had "South East" in the name. On the other hand, SouthCentral disappeared rather quickly after Connex got booted out.

 

[BeijingDave]

Whether this answer is accepted depends on the interpretation of the question.

Whether you mean 'which brands are strongest and most recognisable since mass privatisation (i.e. the demise of British Rail' or 'which brands established only after privatisation are the most recognisable'?

If the former, I would say Merseyrail for duration and consistency.

Although probably not well known among non-rail enthusiasts outside the North West, it has been a sustained and highly recognisable brand in its own area way longer than any others.

 

[frankmoh]

Whether this answer is accepted depends on the interpretation of the question.

Whether you mean 'which brands are strongest and most recognisable since mass privatisation (i.e. the demise of British Rail' or 'which brands established only after privatisation are the most recognisable'?

If the former, I would say Merseyrail for duration and consistency.

Although probably not well known among non-rail enthusiasts outside the North West, it has been a sustained and highly recognisable brand in its own area way longer than any others.

I'd still say Southeastern (in the modern 2006-now brand) is one of the strongest in London. That blue gets everywhere, even at stations it doesn't completely run. Beckenham Junction doesn't even mention it has Southern services outside on the big banner. Every SE station has pretty much been stripped of its NSE heritage aside from a few clocks, compared to other former NSE lines (looking at you Great Northern!)

 

[m79900]

Both Transpennine Express and Cross Country have a wide recognition in the general public, but partly for the wrong reasons, and both existed prior to privatisation.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Whether this answer is accepted depends on the interpretation of the question.

Whether you mean 'which brands are strongest and most recognisable since mass privatisation (i.e. the demise of British Rail' or 'which brands established only after privatisation are the most recognisable'?

If the former, I would say Merseyrail for duration and consistency.

Although probably not well known among non-rail enthusiasts outside the North West, it has been a sustained and highly recognisable brand in its own area way longer than any others.

My original intention was to talk about post 1994 brands that have since demised, but are still regularly referred to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2025 ==

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