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Post diesel…how do you rescue a train?

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Meerkat

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I keep seeing “only taken to the nearest siding/station”. You still need to get that train to a depot!
I might have some belief that batteries will develop enough to fill this road if everything I read says that the only solution for freight and lorries is wires or hydrogen….
 
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RobShipway

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I keep seeing “only taken to the nearest siding/station”. You still need to get that train to a depot!
I might have some belief that batteries will develop enough to fill this road if everything I read says that the only solution for freight and lorries is wires or hydrogen….
Well, it depends if you have passengers on or not. If a train has broken say in Uckfield, then that would first be taken to Oxted station either being hauled by another train or by loco to allow the passengers to disembark, to catch the service up from East Grinstead. But as option has said above, the train should have backup batteries, so in theory unless there is an issue as well with the backup batteries the train should be able to get itself back to either Oxted station and go into the sidings to await a path back to the depot or if a path is available and the driver believes that with being back on 3rd rail at Oxted that he should be able to get the train back under it's own power to the depot, then he will do so. Otherwise, it will be a case that the train at Uckfield is either rescued by a thunderbird loco or the next service coming down to Uckfield which then drags the train away, again either to Oxted or continues with the broken down train on it's service to London Bridge if doing passenger duties, but once that service is completed then goes off to the depot i.e. in this case Selhurst.
 

Meerkat

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Well, it depends if you have passengers on or not. If a train has broken say in Uckfield, then that would first be taken to Oxted station either being hauled by another train or by loco to allow the passengers to disembark, to catch the service up from East Grinstead. But as option has said above, the train should have backup batteries, so in theory unless there is an issue as well with the backup batteries the train should be able to get itself back to either Oxted station and go into the sidings to await a path back to the depot or if a path is available and the driver believes that with being back on 3rd rail at Oxted that he should be able to get the train back under it's own power to the depot, then he will do so. Otherwise, it will be a case that the train at Uckfield is either rescued by a thunderbird loco or the next service coming down to Uckfield which then drags the train away, again either to Oxted or continues with the broken down train on it's service to London Bridge if doing passenger duties, but once that service is completed then goes off to the depot i.e. in this case Selhurst.
That relies on a rescue loco (and the whole question is whether a non diesel rescue loco can exist) or the units having enough battery power to not only do the trip themself but to also pull another unit.
 

HSTEd

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If the unit is out of the way of traffic, and traction power has been restored (if it had failed), then it can be hauled away by any convenient unit at the end of service.
 

Meerkat

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If the unit is out of the way of traffic, and traction power has been restored (if it had failed), then it can be hauled away by any convenient unit at the end of service.
That doesn’t explain what will have the capability to haul a broken battery unit from Uckfield if diesels aren’t allowed, assuming there is anywhere to get it out the way in the first place without getting it to Oxted
 

RobShipway

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That doesn’t explain what will have the capability to haul a broken battery unit from Uckfield if diesels aren’t allowed, assuming there is anywhere to get it out the way in the first place without getting it to Oxted
As far as I am aware there is not any sidings within the areas of the stations between Oxted and Uckfield. The only possibility on route, if it they where not being used would be to place it in the platforms used by the Spa Valley Railway at Eridge. But being there would not allow the unit to recharge it's battery. The only choice where a unit would be able to recharge, would be the sidings at Oxted.

Many answers have been given to you as to how you can rescue a battery operated train from Uckfield, but it seems that any of the answers do not please you. Thing is even though battery trains are starting to be better, no one can really tell the future unless they can travel ahead in time. Between the future and now, it would be another diesel powered unit or locomotive that would haul the battery operated train. But as has been said, the train would have at least two sets of batteries to enable it to be powered, so having both sets not being able to power the train would be very rare. In the future, the way it would be moved is likely to be another battery powered unit or a battery powered version of a class 66 that would more than likely have at least three sets of batteries but this would be a guess as I cannot get my crystal ball to work!
 

HSTEd

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As far as I am aware there is not any sidings within the areas of the stations between Oxted and Uckfield. The only possibility on route, if it they where not being used would be to place it in the platforms used by the Spa Valley Railway at Eridge. But being there would not allow the unit to recharge it's battery. The only choice where a unit would be able to recharge, would be the sidings at Oxted.

Well units could be provided with equipment to enable them to very slowly trickle charge from a IEC 60309 'Commando' plug in an emergency.
 

zwk500

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As far as I am aware there is not any sidings within the areas of the stations between Oxted and Uckfield. The only possibility on route, if it they where not being used would be to place it in the platforms used by the Spa Valley Railway at Eridge.
There is no physical connection between the Spa Valley and Network Rail tracks.
The only choice where a unit would be able to recharge, would be the sidings at Oxted.
Or leave it in the platform at Uckfield and Top work then recover it after service ends
 

Meerkat

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Or leave it in the platform at Uckfield and Top work then recover it after service ends
Is Uckfield platform 24 cars long?!
and that doesn’t explain what You will recover it with post-diesel
 

zwk500

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Is Uckfield platform 24 cars long?!
and that doesn’t explain what You will recover it with post-diesel
Uckfield is 10 cars for a class 171.

Not every Uckfield train is 10 cars. You could, in extremis, short form trains or use local release on an overlength train.

You seem utterly unable to accept what I've been saying that diesel will not go away until batteries are strong enough to cover for situations like this. Or replacable batteries are used, or one of of other solutions suggested upthread.
 

Meerkat

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Uckfield is 10 cars for a class 171.

Not every Uckfield train is 10 cars. You could, in extremis, short form trains or use local release on an overlength train.

You seem utterly unable to accept what I've been saying that diesel will not go away until batteries are strong enough to cover for situations like this. Or replacable batteries are used, or one of of other solutions suggested upthread.
This is a speculation thread, and I am speculating that some politician bans diesels and says ‘make do’.
Hence my initial post said
Obviously the real answer is probably that diesels will get derogations for many years, but if not how would you rescue a failed train
And speculated
I'm assuming batteries and hydrogen would have the same issues as for freight - not enough power/range in a small enough volume/weight limit, or will there have to be some monster three or four bogied battery or hydrogen locos?
If advances in battery tech will solve all problems why do all the traction studies I have read say batteries are not a solution for freight and another solution is needed?
Rescue locos and engineering haulage are problem cases, but I was wondering if there was more opportunity for compromise (not quite so worried about length etc)
 

RobShipway

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This is a speculation thread, and I am speculating that some politician bans diesels and says ‘make do’.
Hence my initial post said

And speculated

If advances in battery tech will solve all problems why do all the traction studies I have read say batteries are not a solution for freight and another solution is needed?
Rescue locos and engineering haulage are problem cases, but I was wondering if there was more opportunity for compromise (not quite so worried about length etc)
Batteries are not the total solution. In most cases it is electrification that is the answer, with batteries giving power to last delivery point away from the electrification.

But not all lines can be electrified and until battery or hydrogen powered locomotives become powerful enough to haul trains you are going to have diesels in some form, even if it is the last mile as is the case with the class 88.

But what you will have certainly in the meantime, is locomotives like the class 93 which can haul a freight train both on it's diesel power and with the use of an OHLE pantograph with the same ease of use. But it will be designed such that where the diesel engine is located in either the class 88 or class 93 locomotives that you will at some point in the future be able to replace those with batteries that have the same power. How long it will be until that happens, who knows. It could be within the next 5 to 10 years, it could be in 20 years. It all really depends on how the battery technology for trains develops.
 
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