Post by Rail

[DarloRich]

Leading on from this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50442 and a look back over some old photos of mine I have been thinking about Royal Mail trains in the UK.

I know that this service will never come back to the railways without massive investment in stock and facilities BUT there was a working system for decades, why can’t we do it again? I think it would have to be a simpler system of longer distance bulk trains. I can’t imagine there is a justification for a TPO anymore.

I would suggest a "palletised” distribution network using the existing (surviving) system of rail net hubs and loading points at key stations to move trainloads of mail. Any mail on the trains would be pre-sorted and packaged in bulk. It would be positioned within the train to enable loading and unloading to take place at stations. There would identified vehicles for each stop. This would mean staff could be positioned ready to service the train. Two big doors per vehicle should be enough to enable loading and unloading to take place simultaneously.

Some loading would need to take place at bigger or geographically important stations, but I would suggest this should be the case only if there is good access and a sorting office nearby so that the mail can be tripped to the nearest sorting office by road and then distributed quickly. These non hub stations need to serve a large geographic area or larger towns NOT served by the distribution system.

I would suggest and up and down train on each route each night. There should be little need for staff on the train as local RM men can load/unload at the stations. As the trains run at night station dwell times or pathing shouldn’t be an issue! (Possessions aside!)

There would need to be a series of hubs at say Willesden, Doncaster, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh with lesser facilities at the extremities of the network. These centres would need to be combined Regional sorting and distribution centres and be manned up to allow loading and unloading of several trains every night. There would be no facilities at intermediate stations other than access for RM vehicles and staff. I would also try to site some stops near to major air hubs to speed international distribution.

I would also suggest that space on the service be found for the carriage of items from companies such as Amazon. There are millions spent on “home shopping” every year and there must be a market to be exploited. This is surely the majority user of postal services in the 21st century.

There would clearly need to be a complete network of interconnecting services between the main hubs, and while this would need very careful planning, I would suggest, suing board brush strokes:

East Coast: Inverness/Aberdeen/Dundee/Edinburgh/Newcastle/Doncaster/London

West Coast: Glasgow/Carlisle/Preston/Crewe/Northampton (?)/London

GW: Penzance/Plymouth/Exeter/Bristol/Reading/London

Wales: Swansea/Cardiff/Newport/Bristol/Swindon/London

XCdinburgh/Newcastle/York/Doncaster/Derby/Birmingham/Chletenham/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth/

Glasgow/Carlisle/Preston/Manchester/Crewe/ Birmingham/Bristol

Ashford/Willesden/Derby/Doncaster/Newcastle

Clearly there is some duplication of routes, however I think you would have to do this as any new stock would, no doubt, be in the form of units which can’t be easily broken up. Unfortunately, until such time as there is a wider electrification programme these units are going to have to be “bi mode”(or even tri mode!) If you use a diesel unit you score a massive green PR own goal and may as well use a truck!

I also don’t think you can, easily, compete with road on shorter runs or over runs well served by motorways. That is why I do not propose any feeder services into the hubs or “all sheds stopper” services on, say, the southern end of the WCML/ECML or in the south. Motorways can take this load more effectively than rail ( unless you offer some kind of premium delivery service)

I realise BR and RM used to do all this (and much more!) but I wonder if members have any thoughts on this idea.

 

[Greenback]

I am not completey up to date on current Royal Mail operations, but I do know that the recent trend has been further concentration into regional mail centres, such as Thames Valley and West of England.

These new mail centres have been designed with the road and air distribution networks in mind, and not the railway. For example, the TV mail centre at Swindon replaced the mail centres at Reading, Swindon and Oxford which were located near the town centres, which was handy for the station but more difficult for access to the motorways.

Any proposals for the restoration of mail traffic on to the rails would have to take into account the current postal hub and spoke network, and not be based on the services of the past, or what might seem to be natural rail hubs.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree Greenback - thats why i used broad brush strokes as i dont know where the hubs are based! I assumed they would be near a big city!

 

[Greenback]

I agree Greenback - thats why i used broad brush strokes as i dont know where the hubs are based! I assumed they would be near a big city!

AFAIK there are a lot less than there used to be. I think there has been a lot of concentration in the Midlands and the North West as well, which means that not all cities now have mail centres, even relatively large centres.

 

[DarloRich]

AFAIK there are a lot less than there used to be. I think there has been a lot of concentration in the Midlands and the North West as well, which means that not all cities now have mail centres, even relatively large centres.

As far as i can make out the following are Regional distribution llocations:

1) Sheildmuir (Scotland Centre) - No problems there allready a rail connected centre! (easy win that one!)

2) Hatfield (North London/Home Counties) - not connected and no space to build anywhere near the station so we will have to build a rail hub somewhere near Tescos on the Great North Road. A two mile jounrey by van

3) Daventry - (National Distribution centre = Midlands Centre). Not rail connected but part of the frieght terminal so space to build something!

4) Normanton (Yorkshire/North East) - The otherside of the line to the Leeds Frieghtliner Terminal. Again space to develop

5) Warrington (North West & North Wales) - Close to the exisiting Rail Hub so no problem. 5 miles by motor way, less if you go throug hte town

6) Bristol (South West, West & South Wales) .7 miles to Bristol Parlway Station ( need to reopen the terminal) but Severn Beach station is only 2,5 miles awyaso lets get some life into that line and open a terminal nearby!

7) Rochester (South East) - Terrible for Rail but right next to HS1! So pay RM to move the terminal to Ashford! Easy!

8) Woking (OUter London/Thames Valley) - Not great but where there is a will there is a way!

9) East Midlands Airport (Air Hub) - build a nice terminal at East Midlands Parkway (Simples!)

10) International Distribution Centre, Northolt - Move by road to Willesden PDRC!

A few changes to my original plan!

 

[Greenback]

You've done a good bit of research there DarloRich! It does show how Royal Mail has become very road and air orientated.

 

[DarloRich]

i think it might take a little bit of investment to get this off the ground. It should never have been lost in the first place ffs!

However it must be greener to use rail to move large loads than trucking them up and dow nthe motorway or using aircraft

 

[Greenback]

i think it might take a little bit of investment to get this off the ground. It should never have been lost in the first place ffs!

However it must be greener to use rail to move large loads than trucking them up and dow nthe motorway or using aircraft

You are right. However, Royal Mail was instructed to act like a private business, and did so by taking what was then the cheaper and more reliable option for transporting mail. They had no mandate to choose the greenest way, they wer eunder pressure to reduce costs and improve service quality due to pressure from Postcomm and the government.

It is yet another failure of the UK to look at the big picture or think long term. As we have seen in countelss other cases, it will cost far more in the long run to put the mail trains back when priorities change due to the road and air options becoming less competitive through rising fuel costs.

It's the sort of thing that makes me despair.

 

[bluenoxid]

Leading on from this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50442 and a look back over some old photos of mine I have been thinking about Royal Mail trains in the UK.

I know that this service will never come back to the railways without massive investment in stock and facilities BUT there was a working system for decades, why can’t we do it again? I think it would have to be a simpler system of longer distance bulk trains. I can’t imagine there is a justification for a TPO anymore.

I would suggest a "palletised” distribution network using the existing (surviving) system of rail net hubs and loading points at key stations to move trainloads of mail. Any mail on the trains would be pre-sorted and packaged in bulk. It would be positioned within the train to enable loading and unloading to take place at stations. There would identified vehicles for each stop. This would mean staff could be positioned ready to service the train. Two big doors per vehicle should be enough to enable loading and unloading to take place simultaneously.

Some loading would need to take place at bigger or geographically important stations, but I would suggest this should be the case only if there is good access and a sorting office nearby so that the mail can be tripped to the nearest sorting office by road and then distributed quickly. These non hub stations need to serve a large geographic area or larger towns NOT served by the distribution system.

I would suggest and up and down train on each route each night. There should be little need for staff on the train as local RM men can load/unload at the stations. As the trains run at night station dwell times or pathing shouldn’t be an issue! (Possessions aside!)

There would need to be a series of hubs at say Willesden, Doncaster, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh with lesser facilities at the extremities of the network. These centres would need to be combined Regional sorting and distribution centres and be manned up to allow loading and unloading of several trains every night. There would be no facilities at intermediate stations other than access for RM vehicles and staff. I would also try to site some stops near to major air hubs to speed international distribution.

I would also suggest that space on the service be found for the carriage of items from companies such as Amazon. There are millions spent on “home shopping” every year and there must be a market to be exploited. This is surely the majority user of postal services in the 21st century.

There would clearly need to be a complete network of interconnecting services between the main hubs, and while this would need very careful planning, I would suggest, suing board brush strokes:

East Coast: Inverness/Aberdeen/Dundee/Edinburgh/Newcastle/Doncaster/London

West Coast: Glasgow/Carlisle/Preston/Crewe/Northampton (?)/London

GW: Penzance/Plymouth/Exeter/Bristol/Reading/London

Wales: Swansea/Cardiff/Newport/Bristol/Swindon/London

XCdinburgh/Newcastle/York/Doncaster/Derby/Birmingham/Chletenham/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth/

Glasgow/Carlisle/Preston/Manchester/Crewe/ Birmingham/Bristol

Ashford/Willesden/Derby/Doncaster/Newcastle

Clearly there is some duplication of routes, however I think you would have to do this as any new stock would, no doubt, be in the form of units which can’t be easily broken up. Unfortunately, until such time as there is a wider electrification programme these units are going to have to be “bi mode”(or even tri mode!) If you use a diesel unit you score a massive green PR own goal and may as well use a truck!

I also don’t think you can, easily, compete with road on shorter runs or over runs well served by motorways. That is why I do not propose any feeder services into the hubs or “all sheds stopper” services on, say, the southern end of the WCML/ECML or in the south. Motorways can take this load more effectively than rail ( unless you offer some kind of premium delivery service)

I realise BR and RM used to do all this (and much more!) but I wonder if members have any thoughts on this idea.

Scrap the idea because trains are inflexible and difficult to vary. You may not like it but this is not a market to enter as mail volumes fall.

 

[DarloRich]

Scrap the idea because trains are inflexible and difficult to vary. You may not like it but this is not a market to enter as mail volumes fall.

So you dont think there is a market for bulk delivery of presorted "palletised" mail between selected distribution locations? What about all of that Amazon stuff that goes by Royal Mail, or all the business mail? GBRF must hate running the London-Warrington-Scotland service then

The services dont need to be varried much. You just run between the distribution locations. I understand there are problems with diversions, but you must be alble to carry more mail in a train load then in a fleet of lorries. How much post can you move from London to Aberdeen, say, by air?

Clearly, there is no way you could compete with road with the old system of stopping at every couple of stations to throw on a few bags of mail. It has to be a full train, with on ward road distribution frm the hub

 

[Greenback]

Mail volumes are predicted to carry on falling, but the amount of packets and parcels for home delivery should rise. As these are bulkier and heavier than letters, it would make more sense for them to be carried by rail instead of air.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

I agree with Greenback and, perhaps, we should not limit our discussion to Royal Mail. DHL and UPS, for example, operate significant aircraft fleets. At present Air Passenger Duty is exactly that: a tax on passengers not freight. Given that the government has stated that its aim is to tax the industry on a per flight basis, small parcels operators will nolonger find themselves exempt.

So, I can see a case in the not too distant future, for Royal Mail to change its longer distance routes from Road/Air to Rail. More importantly, perhaps, we may see DHL and others transport parcels between their major hubs through the Channel Tunnel.

Let's hope so anyway!

 

[michael769]

Current Royal Mail policy is to use a mix of road, air and rail to transport mail around the country. This has the advantage that is one mode is disrupted they have the infrastructure at hand to transfer the mail to another mode - this happens on a very regular basis.

While there is probably a strong argument for increasing the volume transported by rail, it would I feel be very unwise to move it all or even the bulk to rail exclusively. Particularly as the rail network is very vulnerable to disruptions.

 

[Bon Accord]

What happened to all the Super GUV/BG's and PCV's? Scrapping or storage?

 

[Aictos]

The old Peterborough Royal Mail sorting office had excellent links with the rail network as it was right next door to the station - however it closed down and was demolished last year and is currently used as a car park.

The new one located in Werrington is very much geared to road operations - any link with the rail network would require new access.

With regards to Royal Mail gearing towards air and road transportation, I remember how much hassle the existing ParcelForce depots got from the new hub at Coventry when it first opened - with the existing depots spending a great deal of their time sorting out Coventry's mistakes/cock ups.

However I do think it's time that Royal Mail rethink their distribution policy and look at extending the existing 325 workings where possible.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Greenback and, perhaps, we should not limit our discussion to Royal Mail. DHL and UPS, for example, operate significant aircraft fleets. At present Air Passenger Duty is exactly that: a tax on passengers not freight. Given that the government has stated that its aim is to tax the industry on a per flight basis, small parcels operators will nolonger find themselves exempt.

So, I can see a case in the not too distant future, for Royal Mail to change its longer distance routes from Road/Air to Rail. More importantly, perhaps, we may see DHL and others transport parcels between their major hubs through the Channel Tunnel.

Let's hope so anyway!

Agreed.

Current Royal Mail policy is to use a mix of road, air and rail to transport mail around the country. This has the advantage that is one mode is disrupted they have the infrastructure at hand to transfer the mail to another mode - this happens on a very regular basis.

While there is probably a strong argument for increasing the volume transported by rail, it would I feel be very unwise to move it all or even the bulk to rail exclusively. Particularly as the rail network is very vulnerable to disruptions.

We can never shift all mail back to rail. Even in the mail by rail heyday there was some mail that went by road, mainly local and inter district mails where it was cheaper and quicker not to use rail even then.

Of course, rail is subject to disruption like all other forms of transport. I;m not sure of the precise figures, but I believe the punctuality and reliability of the TPO's improved markedly during the last years of operation.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree with Greenback and, perhaps, we should not limit our discussion to Royal Mail. DHL and UPS, for example, operate significant aircraft fleets. At present Air Passenger Duty is exactly that: a tax on passengers not freight. Given that the government has stated that its aim is to tax the industry on a per flight basis, small parcels operators will nolonger find themselves exempt.

So, I can see a case in the not too distant future, for Royal Mail to change its longer distance routes from Road/Air to Rail. More importantly, perhaps, we may see DHL and others transport parcels between their major hubs through the Channel Tunnel.

Let's hope so anyway!

I forgot about companies like DHL or UPS. Amazon have seven "fulfilment centres" around the uk at:

1) Swansea Bay - Swansea Gate Business Park very close to the remains of Swansea Burrows
2) Rugeley - Towers Business Park - right next to Rugeley Power Station (so close to rail facilities)
3) Gourock Faulds Park - No where near a railway line!
4) Dunfermline - Sandpiper Drive - very close to the Fife Circle line
5) Peterborough - Kingston Park (Which i THINK is that massive warehouse just south of Peterborough station
6) Doncaster Firstpoint Business Park right next to the Doncaster Railport
7) Marston Gate Right next to Ridgemont Station on the Marston Vale Line

Now in an ideal world "rail" would be trying to get investment to connect these facilities to the network and win these services from "road". Any one for the Amazon train like the Tesco train!

 

[Greenback]

The Amazon centre in Swansea is pretty close to the railway line into the docks. But I think rail might struggle to compete with the flexibility of road for Amazon operations.

 

[DarloRich]

The Amazon centre in Swansea is pretty close to the railway line into the docks. But I think rail might struggle to compete with the flexibility of road for Amazon operations.

Do they use RM to deliver thier products? I thought they did. I was suggesting moving bulk loads of goods between there districbution locations and the RM distribution locations. (especially at peak periods!)

 

[Greenback]

Do they use RM to deliver thier products? I thought they did. I was suggesting moving bulk lioads of goods between there districbution locations and the RM distribution locations. (especially at peak periods!)

They do use Royal Mail. I don't know the ins and outs of their operation, but I would guess that Amazon supply their regional distribution centres by road themselves, and then the packed items for home delivery are taken to Royal Mail centres by road.

Where my knowledge is sadly lacking is whether everything processed at the Amazon centre is taken to the nearest RM centre, or whether it goes to a concentration centre.

If the former, then it would be a long and roundabout operation to take packets from AMazon in Swansea Gate to the mail centre, and I would guess that would also be the case at some of the other locations.

If the latter, that would make the use of rial more feasible, though it would depend on the locations of the depots.

I can;t see that Amazon would want to lose control of their own road distribution network to their processing centres. How flexible would rail be to customer needs, given that timetables and paths are bid for and planned months in advance?

I do think that privatisation helped to push Royal Mail away from the railways. As an operator, BR had total control on its own operations, if it wanted to run an extra train on request from Royal Mail, then it didn't have to worry about going to another organisation to agree paths! The current set up does not allow the same sort of responsiveness.

 

[DarloRich]

I dont think mail will come back onto the rails until it is the cheaopest way to move bulk around the country. I would think only full trains can be made to make a profit.

Although i do wonder how BR/RM arranged payment for the services that used to run. Was it just becuase they were all public bodies that the costs of the services were subsidised. Or was there always a contractual relationship between the parties. I assume in later years it had to run on a commerical basis between RES/EWS and RM and clearly today GBRF must make the contract pay or they wouldnt keep it!

 

[sprinterguy]

What happened to all the Super GUV/BG's and PCV's? Scrapping or storage?

Scrapped or stored in conditions where scrapping is the only realistic option.

 

[Greenback]

I dont think mail will come back onto the rails until it is the cheaopest way to move bulk around the country. I would think only full trains can be made to make a profit.

Although i do wonder how BR/RM arranged payment for the services that used to run. Was it just becuase they were all public bodies that the costs of the services were subsidised. Or was there always a contractual relationship between the parties. I assume in later years it had to run on a commerical basis between RES/EWS and RM and clearly today GBRF must make the contract pay or they wouldnt keep it!

I believe that there were contracts between BR and RM that were renewed from time to time. I don't think anything was subsidised. Both organisations were always under government pressure on costs - for BR it was to stay in budget, for the Royal Mail it was to make a surplus that was transferred to the Treasury.

IIRC, the contract covered TPO's, all other mail trains, use of stations, and, at least in the latter days, punctuality and reliability clauses. As it's almost twenty years since I was involved with Royal Mail, I am starting to forget some of the details - I wish I'd paid more attention to what was going on!

 

[anthony263]

I remember class 47's working the afternoon mail train from swansea station, i think it used to depart swansea around 14:20 or it could have been an hour later, as i saw it a few times when i had come down on the virgin hst from newport to swansea.

The cages etc are still in place at swansea station although no idea how long they will stay there.

as for amazon centre in swansea, i know the track from swansea burrow's yard to the old ford factory next to amazon is still intact so perhaps that could be extended to amazon if they were serious about putting a lot of packages etc on rail and there is room to do so. I have been past it on the bus and i am never dissapointed with the amount of lorries serving it always busy, which increases sharply during the run up to xmas where the artics can sometimes be queing outside.

 

[Greenback]

I remember class 47's working the afternoon mail train from swansea station, i think it used to depart swansea around 14:20 or it could have been an hour later, as i saw it a few times when i had come down on the virgin hst from newport to swansea.

I remember that train well. It used to convey quite a lot of second class mail from South Wales. This was non time sensitive stuff which contianed a lot of DVLA reminder letters! It was processed on the morning shift and sent down to the station shortly after 1330.

The cages etc are still in place at swansea station although no idea how long they will stay there.

They seem to be used for the secure storage of other thnigs now, so they may not disappear at all.

 

[DarloRich]

I believe that there were contracts between BR and RM that were renewed from time to time. I don't think anything was subsidised. Both organisations were always under government pressure on costs - for BR it was to stay in budget, for the Royal Mail it was to make a surplus that was transferred to the Treasury.

IIRC, the contract covered TPO's, all other mail trains, use of stations, and, at least in the latter days, punctuality and reliability clauses. As it's almost twenty years since I was involved with Royal Mail, I am starting to forget some of the details - I wish I'd paid more attention to what was going on!

I thought the later years must have gone on to a proper commercial contractual arrangement in the run up to privatisation but never knew it had been going on for years. I just assumed it was decreed it would happen as both parties were under governmental control and therefore there was not a full commercial cost to the operation.

 

[Greenback]

I thought the later years must have gone on to a proper commercial contractual arrangement in the run up to privatisation but never knew it had been going on for years. I just assumed it was decreed it would happen as both parties were under governmental control and therefore there was not a full commercial cost to the operation.

The carriage of the Royal Mail was always a prestigious and valuable contract for transport poviders, right from the days of horses and stage coaches through to the new private railway companies and then to nationalisation.

Although both BR and RM were public bodies, they wer enot managed by government and were expected to act in a commercial way. I rmember that Adrian Shooter was once involved in the negotiations for a new Royal Mail contract. He certainly would have tried to get the best deal possible, and no doubt the negotiators on the other side had a similar agenda!

 

[anthony263]

wasnt one of the reasons why some of the mail trains were scrapped because of problems with EWS at the time?

 

[Greenback]

wasnt one of the reasons why some of the mail trains were scrapped because of problems with EWS at the time?

When was that? It may jog my memory!

Royal Mail went through several stages where they reviewed mail train operations. There was a TPO review in 1988 for instance, and weekend mail trains were withdrawn a few years later. Obviously, if EWS were involved it would have been after privatisation?

 

[anthony263]

When was that? It may jog my memory!

Royal Mail went through several stages where they reviewed mail train operations. There was a TPO review in 1988 for instance, and weekend mail trains were withdrawn a few years later. Obviously, if EWS were involved it would have been after privatisation?

It was after privatisation, i think it was back early 2000 or something, something to do with a dispute between the management over the costs will have to have a look through my back issues or rail, sure there was article in them at the time.