Possibly left stranded by LM tonight (15/04)

[gray1404]

Received this reply from Network Rail (attached).

does not surprise me in the slightest that Merseyrail do not even know the correct inter change time for their own station. Their own timetable states that LPY is 7 minutes!

 

[gray1404]

Received this reply from Network Rail (attached).

does not surprise me in the slightest that Merseyrail do not even know the correct inter change time for their own station. Their own timetable states that LPY is 7 minutes!

Update on this, received the above from Network Rail. hopefully they do not up the interchange time at LPY to 10 from 7. Worte a separate complaint to Network Rail about no staff being at LIV on arrival. They have closed the case on their online portal without even replying. I shall be following this up with them.

Heard nothing from LM and my friend is still out of pocket. I spoke to a guy called Dennis at their Customer Relations Department. Was advised that full refund for delay over 2 hours has been issued in RTVs. This was sent out over a week ago and has still not been received. I called them again today asking they reissue this.

Had a detailed discussion with Dennis about the taxi fare. Was advised that my friend should have spoke to Network Rail staff at Lime Street. I referenced him to the email explaining no staff were on hand. It was clear that LM clearly didn't read the detailed email containing the taxi receipt and, as such, are yet to authorise and issue a cheque refund.

What is frustrating is I had to argue the case on the phone as to why LM is duty bound to refund this and that the NRCoC had been breached by leaving a passenger stranded.


UPDATE 17/05/15: -
Still not received a full reply from LM. Just an email asking if we've yet received the RTV in respect of a full refund on the rail ticket they sent 10 days ago. The answer to this is no, and have emailed back saying so, but this waiting game is getting annoying!

In addition to scanned letter received from Network Rail in post above, have received another email from Network Rail regarding the change of connection time now required at Liverpool South Parkway. They've confirmed it is NOT 10 minutes and it is in fact 7, HOWEVER if your transfering to the ME Nothern Line from the other set of platforms (ie. to/from any other TOC) they've increased it to 9 minutes. I think this is additional time is not required and they've done this without any proper consultation. It not makes so many late night last train journeys not possible.

Here is a copy of the email: -

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your recent correspondence in regards to connection times at Liverpool South Parkway Station.

Our station support team have confirmed that the official connection time for Liverpool South Parkway is 7 minutes, but there is an additional stipulation.

There is an additional 2 minute walking connection when passengers transfer from the higher level to lower level at the station, or visa versa.

Therefore, on this occasion, the TRUST system is correct and the error is with the National Rail Enquires and other associated third party ticket sellers.

I hope this information is of assistance and confirms our position in this regard.

Kind regards

Daniel Coles
Community Relations Executive

 

[bb21]

Time to issue a final letter and take things to Passenger Focus I think, at least wrt Network Rail.

 

[222007]

Very lucky the OP friend had money to be able to pay for a cab otherwise it would have been an over night stay outside the station

 

[Merseysider]

That is a ridiculously inadequate response. I agree with bb21.

And 9 minutes, seriously? I've changed from the intercity platforms to the Merseyrail platforms in under 60 seconds.

 

[Qwerty133]

Update on this, received the above from Network Rail. hopefully they do not up the interchange time at LPY to 10 from 7. Worte a separate complaint to Network Rail about no staff being at LIV on arrival. They have closed the case on their online portal without even replying. I shall be following this up with them.

Heard nothing from LM and my friend is still out of pocket. I spoke to a guy called Dennis at their Customer Relations Department. Was advised that full refund for delay over 2 hours has been issued in RTVs. This was sent out over a week ago and has still not been received. I called them again today asking they reissue this.

Had a detailed discussion with Dennis about the taxi fare. Was advised that my friend should have spoke to Network Rail staff at Lime Street. I referenced him to the email explaining no staff were on hand. It was clear that LM clearly didn't read the detailed email containing the taxi receipt and, as such, are yet to authorise and issue a cheque refund.

What is frustrating is I had to argue the case on the phone as to why LM is duty bound to refund this and that the NRCoC had been breached by leaving a passenger stranded.


UPDATE 17/05/15: -
Still not received a full reply from LM. Just an email asking if we've yet received the RTV in respect of a full refund on the rail ticket they sent 10 days ago. The answer to this is no, and have emailed back saying so, but this waiting game is getting annoying!

In addition to scanned letter received from Network Rail in post above, have received another email from Network Rail regarding the change of connection time now required at Liverpool South Parkway. They've confirmed it is NOT 10 minutes and it is in fact 7, HOWEVER if your transfering to the ME Nothern Line from the other set of platforms (ie. to/from any other TOC) they've increased it to 9 minutes. I think this is additional time is not required and they've done this without any proper consultation. It not makes so many late night last train journeys not possible.

Here is a copy of the email: -

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your recent correspondence in regards to connection times at Liverpool South Parkway Station.

Our station support team have confirmed that the official connection time for Liverpool South Parkway is 7 minutes, but there is an additional stipulation.

There is an additional 2 minute walking connection when passengers transfer from the higher level to lower level at the station, or visa versa.

Therefore, on this occasion, the TRUST system is correct and the error is with the National Rail Enquires and other associated third party ticket sellers.

I hope this information is of assistance and confirms our position in this regard.

Kind regards

<name removed>
Community Relations Executive

If you don't want your name published on the internet, what makes you think the network rail member of staff wants there's published?

 

[gray1404]

Qwerty133: -I am more then happy to have my name published on the internet. However, my friend who was travelling, and his name was on the letter, isn't. This is why I left it out.

ANYWAY, back to the matter at hand, bb21 and JakeF, in terms of issuing a final letter, are you saying that I should write back to Network Rail (with my friends permission, I'm drafting the letters, he is signing them off and together we are looking at the replies) stating I am not happy? Then, after that do I refer the matter to passenger focus?

7 minutes has always been the interchange time for LPY. I've personally thought it should only ever have been 5 but I've accepted it as 7 and planned (and shall continue to) by VALID connections with this timeframe. Network Rail had no right to change things on their TRUST system to 10 minutes (interesting how ticket sales agents, TOC websites and National Rail were still applying the 7 minute figure) and then, only when challenged on it once incorrect information had been given out at BHM, go back to saying it is 7 but then making it 9 if your connection is onto ME.

Nowhere has this new information even been put in the public domain. So, is it for me and my friend to write back here now? Is that the next step before PF?

222007 yes, after the last time LM did this and my friend had to phone his Dad to come and pick him up, he made sure this time he had the money for the taxi and asked me to be very single minded in taking this up with LM for him to make sure they pay. Still nothing received from LM and they are yet to pay up for the taxi or provide Delay Repay compensation. Am going to give them one more week and shall give them one more follow up phone call (will leave a message for the specific guy who is looking at the case) before sending it over to PF on the basic of no reply been received. This is NOT good at all LM!

 

[bb21]

The reason I say that preferably you should issue them with a final letter is that it is what Transport Focus (as they are known now) require.

So write to them, say in no uncertain terms that you find it unsatisfactory that they have closed your complaint regarding the lack of staff at Lime Street which could have left a passenger stranded despite holding a valid ticket. Say clearly in your letter how long you expect it to take before a satisfactory response is received or you would be escalating this matter further to external bodies as appropriate. See this.

I am not sure what you can do regarding the change in interchange times as I don't think they need to consult passengers on that front, as long as the revised information is made available to the travelling public promptly. If this results in a loss of journey opportunities, you may wish to raise this with LM, or your MP if getting nowhere.

 

[gray1404]

OK, will issue final letter to Network Rail regarding the issues at Liverpool Lime Street; going to PF if unhappy after that. Shall contact Network Rail again saying that I am now happy about the change of connection time at LPY. If unhappy with that shall take up with PF anyway, for the sake of it, and also involve my MP.

They certainly have not made the traveling public aware of this information promptly and the new timetables still states that it is only 7 minutes required in all circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
UPDATE on LM element: Followed this up by phone with them today. Nothing had been done on it for a whole week since I replied their email. Within an hour of the call I receive this email from them:

"Thank you for your further email, please do accept my apologies for the delay in responding.

I have today raised a cheque request with our Finance team to cover your train ticket and taxi fare (£54.35), the cheque will be sent to you within the next 28 days and you should receive seperate written confirmation of this in 5 to 7 days time.

Once again I'm very sorry to hear that you did not receive our previous postal response."

Upon receipt of this cheque that will be the delay repay (full refund on return ticket as 120mins+ delay) and taxi fare solved. Shall be interesting to see what is mentioned, if anything, in their written reply about being stranded at Liverpool Lime Street. (The previous postal response mentioned is when they say they'd refunded the fare under Delay Repay though RTVs - but these never arrived.)

The issue of Network Rail not providing assistance at LIV is still outstanding however and I shall continue to follow this up. This is because I do not want nothing situation of arriving at LIV again and not being provided with a taxi.

 

[gray1404]

28/05/15
Cheque received from LM for train fare and taxi payable to my friend. Letter was very insulting making a point has to how it was a consequential loss and the rail company was not bound by NRCoC to cover such expenses. No mention of the other issues raised in the complaint letter about being left stranded, no staff at LIV to help and provide taxi that was authorised by LM control centre. Also, no mention as to why they first sent out RTVs rather then a cheque to his old address (that he's formally done a delay repay for - despite he put his new address on the most recent form). Hopeless on the part of LM! Not sure if he should complain to Passenger Focus as this could so easily happen again.

Quote from letter: "The represents a full refund of your rail fare [delay over 2 hours] and your taxi fare, although it is prudent for me to point that that the latter would ordinarily be deemed as a consequential loss, which I train company would not formally refund."

 

[Merseysider]

28/05/15
Cheque received from LM for train fare and taxi payable to my friend. Letter was very insulting making a point has to how it was a consequential loss and the rail company was not bound by NRCoC to cover such expenses. No mention of the other issues raised in the complaint letter about being left stranded, no staff at LIV to help and provide taxi that was authorised by LM control centre. Also, no mention as to why they first sent out RTVs rather then a cheque to his old address (that he's formally done a delay repay for - despite he put his new address on the most recent form). Hopeless on the part of LM! Not sure if he should complain to Passenger Focus as this could so easily happen again.

Quote from letter: "The represents a full refund of your rail fare [delay over 2 hours] and your taxi fare, although it is prudent for me to point that that the latter would ordinarily be deemed as a consequential loss, which I train company would not formally refund."

That sounds like they're paying up because they can't be bothered arguing the case any longer. I would cash the cheque and leave this case for now. There isn't anything else to gain right now I fear. If it happens again, either to you or to your friend, ie potentially getting stranded despite having assurances of onward transport, invoice them for the taxi fare plus a £10 admin fee. If they don't pay up then take it straight to PF.

 

[gray1404]

That's the bit that concerns me. A passenger with a valid itinerary with all the minimum connections allowed (be that on a through ticket like what my friend was on or myself normally on a split ticket for the ME bit to/from LPY then another for LM remainder) is being left totally stranded. The NRCoC all we all know on here makes express reference to this situation and how a TOC should help passengers. Very bad service failing on their part. There is no good will in them for sending this cheque, they are merely doing what they should have done and the ticket refund was an entitlement too given the length of delay. There is simply NO WAY that under these circumstances this could be described as a consequential loss given a taxi was only taken as last connection of day had departed and no taxi was provided by Network Rail at LIV.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That sums up London Midland's customer services department. There's probably no point pushing it as you got what you wanted this time, though if you fancy the sport you could always ask them how to avoid the "consequential loss" of being stranded miles from your final destination next time. Don't expect a sensible answer, though.

GoVia haven't given a flying fig about their passengers at any point in the last eight years, they're not going to start now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GoVia haven't given a flying fig about their passengers at any point in the last eight years, they're not going to start now.

If anything they are getting worse as they continue to cut costs. Their Twitter service is one of the worst now, it used to be exemplary. VT have got an awful lot better in comparison.

 

[GatwickDepress]

If anything they are getting worse as they continue to cut costs. Their Twitter service is one of the worst now, it used to be exemplary. VT have got an awful lot better in comparison.

LM's Twitter only be active from 7 AM to 7 PM is an appalling period of time. Any disruption or service changes outside of that window and it can be an absolute pain in the rear to get anything. Of course you could use station call points, but those are pretty much useless; and on-train and station staff, amazing as they often are, aren't always available.

Weirdly, I think Southern, Southeastern, and Thameslink's Twitter feeds are now 24 hours. London Midland really seems to have been cut back to the bone...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weirdly, I think Southern, Southeastern, and Thameslink's Twitter feeds are now 24 hours. London Midland really seems to have been cut back to the bone...

It almost feels to me like there was some empire building and burning over it. David Whitley worked really hard to build it up, including manning it in his own time himself, and as soon as he moved onto another role whoever replaced him came in and slashed it right back, not just in terms of the hours but in terms of the authority they have to do anything. A real shame.

 

[gray1404]

Yet London Midland has the biggest network ranging from Liverpool to London, across to Hereford and the whole of the West Midlands. Yet, Southern, South Easter and Thameslink and Great Northern are smaller by comparison.

What sort of authority did London Midland Twitter team used to have to do things?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What sort of authority did London Midland Twitter team used to have to do things?

When David Whitley (a senior manager) was involved, they had a very good knowledge of what was going on, and could arrange things like stop orders if they had unwittingly left a load of people stuck from a cancellation, fixing faulty PIS etc very quickly in the event of a problem. It was *real* customer service - the authority to solve the problems on the spot rather than writing in for compensation or a retrospective complaint.

Nowadays they just tell you to email customer services, which is a waste of time, and it isn't manned in the evenings when it might be more use with fewer staff around. But I don't want to complain and be fobbed off with RTVs. I want there to be a real connection from customer service into control, so problems can be solved[1] before they become big problems.

[1] Sometimes what the customer wants isn't right, of course, but where it is it's best to fix it now rather than pay out RTVs later.

 

[jon0844]

Often getting 'paid off' without accepting any guilt or seeking to fix things is a bad idea too. Sure, you're sorted and many people can argue it's time to leave it and move on, but chances are the problem won't be fixed for next time (or someone else). Goodwill gestures are so common, and clearly work though.

It's no different to companies that would settle out of court for anything they know they'd lose and potentially set a precedent that would affect revenue in the longer term.

However I fully understand why people don't then pursue things further. I've done the exact same thing. Sometimes life is too short.

 

[gray1404]

Further update: phoned Network Rail saying I'd not hard anything back on Liverpool Lime Street failure to provide taxi. They advised: "After liaising with our Station Support Assistant at Liverpool Lime Street Station she has advised that Northern Rail would have been responsible for arranging the passengers taxi with London Midland Control.

As London Midland do not have any representatives at Liverpool Lime street, Northern rail are the train operator which look after London Midlands passengers and services.

A member of Northern rail staff is always on duty overnight but unfortunately we are unsure if London Midland control contacted them to inform them you were at the station. Therefore you may now wish to acquire comment from Northern Rail on this matter."

London Midland did tell me in a phone call that is was Network Rail who should have provided the assistance as they manage the station. I spoke to someone in the know who confirmed to me that it is no surprise that the overnight member of staff was no where to be found. Even on the night in question I believe another forum member posted on here something like 'finding the member of staff will be difficult."

I would have thought it would have been standard industry practice for Network Rail to now forward the complaint to Northern and advise me of such, as it has now been established that the complaint does not relate to them. Clearly this has not happened.

I have therefore forwarded the complaint to Northern for reply. As a regular user of LM only tickets between London and Liverpool, there have been a couple of times when there has been service disruption and I've only just made my last possible connection of the day on Merseyrail (I use split tickets). In the event of missing the last connection at Liverpool South Parkway I would like to think I would be able to continue to Liverpool Lime Street - as its nearer to my final destination - and the Northern member of staff would be contactable and arrange a taxi. Should be a good thing for passengers that Liverpool Lime Street is staffed 24 hours.

I am hoping Northern will address this staffing issue and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I have yet to contact London Midland again or take it up with Transport Focus about their poor response and not addressing the points. I did go online to complain to Network Rail about the change of interchange time at Liverpool South Parkway from 7 to 9 minutes, the conflicting information and the fact this has not been communicated with customers. However, and having had this also confirmed by their call centre, to make a formal complaint you MUST contact them in writing - so I've not had the chance to do this yet to the address on their website/same as the one provided to me by their call centre.

Surely this is not right as if there was a customer who, due to disability for example, was unable to contact them by post, they would have no other advertised way of making a formal complaint.

 

[wellwhatitis]

When David Whitley (a senior manager) was involved, they had a very good knowledge of what was going on, and could arrange things like stop orders if they had unwittingly left a load of people stuck from a cancellation, fixing faulty PIS etc very quickly in the event of a problem. It was *real* customer service - the authority to solve the problems on the spot rather than writing in for compensation or a retrospective complaint.

Nowadays they just tell you to email customer services, which is a waste of time, and it isn't manned in the evenings when it might be more use with fewer staff around. But I don't want to complain and be fobbed off with RTVs. I want there to be a real connection from customer service into control, so problems can be solved[1] before they become big problems.

[1] Sometimes what the customer wants isn't right, of course, but where it is it's best to fix it now rather than pay out RTVs later.

Perhaps if they hadn't gone about reporting traincrew to their managers on the say so of impulsive, anonymous and highly inaccurate tweeters, resulting in the incorrect and immediate removal from working and tox testing of said crew, they would have had a better case to remain in place.

 

[gray1404]

Has anyone else ever had problems locating a member of staff at Lime Street for assistance overnight?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps if they hadn't gone about reporting traincrew to their managers on the say so of impulsive, anonymous and highly inaccurate tweeters, resulting in the incorrect and immediate removal from working and tox testing of said crew, they would have had a better case to remain in place.

I certainly think any report about staff, whoever it may happen to be from, should be appropriately reported and properly investigated, but it does rather sound like the investigation was somewhat heavy handed and excessive in its nature.