Possible use for Class 350/2s

[D365]

It would absolutely be possible to convert a Class 185 to an EMU (for a price). It's just a Desiro body, with the length/width of the 444 but the layout of the 350 (ish).

That's the key line. You can do anything, for a price. Doesn't make it sensible or realistic.

Why would you put the engineering hours in to reverse engineering a diesel Desiro, when you could just buy something off the shelf, brand new - or used.

 

[37057]

It would absolutely be possible to convert a Class 185 to an EMU (for a price). It's just a Desiro body, with the length/width of the 444 but the layout of the 350 (ish).

However, with a shortage of DMUs and a glut of EMUs, what on earth would you do that for?

I bet any DMU could be converted on that basis whether it be a 185 or a 158! A 185 has no special features that mean it could be done any easier.

Complete underframe redesign and a roof well & interior mod, wiring and piping etc.

This section of the forum should be renamed "ridiculous ideas" rather then "speculative"!

 

[TheWalrus]

Bit of a long shot but could 350s be fitted with batteries, used on North Downs Gatwick-Reading, would they be able to charge their batteries enough on the 3rd rail sections to get over the non-electrified sections on battery power?

 

[JonathanH]

Bit of a long shot but could 350s be fitted with batteries, used on North Downs Gatwick-Reading, would they be able to charge their batteries enough on the 3rd rail sections to get over the non-electrified sections on battery power?

Given the common ownership of the 769s and 350/2s, I doubt it would be in Porterbook's interests to waste the investment in the 769s if there is somewhere else the 350/2s can be used more sensibly without having to have batteries installed.

 

[Domh245]

Given the common ownership of the 769s and 350/2s, I doubt it would be in Porterbook's interests to waste the investment in the 769s if there is somewhere else the 350/2s can be used more sensibly without having to have batteries installed.

True, but don't forget that the 350s have got the best part of 30 years of life left in them yet (taking the average EMU life at 40 years) - the 769s have a decade before they hit 40, and it's not unlikely they won't see that. 769s are only ever going to be a temporary solution, and between the government backing of their use at Northern, and the subsequent orders for TfW and GWR they'll have recouped as much as they realistically can. Trying to call a TOCs bluff has landed them in trouble before don't forget - they'd presumed 323s and 350/2s would stay with the West Midlands Franchise and that backfired rather spectacularly, it'd be better for them to try and cut their losses and sort a long term lease for the 350s over the 769s if that's what it comes down to

 

[JonathanH]

True, but don't forget that the 350s have got the best part of 30 years of life left in them yet (taking the average EMU life at 40 years) - the 769s have a decade before they hit 40, and it's not unlikely they won't see that. 769s are only ever going to be a temporary solution, and between the government backing of their use at Northern, and the subsequent orders for TfW and GWR they'll have recouped as much as they realistically can. Trying to call a TOCs bluff has landed them in trouble before don't forget - they'd presumed 323s and 350/2s would stay with the West Midlands Franchise and that backfired rather spectacularly, it'd be better for them to try and cut their losses and sort a long term lease for the 350s over the 769s if that's what it comes down to

GWR doesn't seem the obvious place for a ROSCO to seek to secure a long term lease for experimental traction, until it is out of the cycle of direct awards.

[1] Obviously the IETs are there for the long term but they are a DfT investment specifically procured for the GWR operation. (Part of the fleet of) The 387s weren't the first choice for the work they are being used for but presumably the price was set in such a way that they were sufficiently more attractive than 365s.

 

[66C]

Transport Scotland are going to be shopping shortly for 8 car units for East Kilbride and Barrhead and some additional units to run from Dunblane to Perth plus any 318 that are nearing the end of their life and needing replaced. So the 350/2's may find a home here. Can the couple up to a 380?

 

[Energy]

Transport Scotland are going to be shopping shortly for 8 car units for East Kilbride and Barrhead and some additional units to run from Dunblane to Perth plus any 318 that are nearing the end of their life and needing replaced. So the 350/2's may find a home here. Can the couple up to a 380?

Even if they aren't compatible with the 380s they will likely share some parts allowing for easier maintenance so the 350/2s would make sense.

 

[37057]

350s and 380s are not compatible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

350s and 380s are not compatible.

They may not be coupling compatible, but they are classic Desiros in terms of the electrical kit etc - I understand ScotRail were quite specific that that was what they wanted and didn't want the unproven Desiro City kit.

 

[gingertom]

Even if they aren't compatible with the 380s they will likely share some parts allowing for easier maintenance so the 350/2s would make sense.

how big is the sub-fleet of 350/2s?

 

[JonathanH]

how big is the sub-fleet of 350/2s?

37 4-car units

 

[swt_passenger]

Using an AC EMU as an ordinary AC EMU? That’s a bit revolutionary for the speculation forum, I doubt it will catch on...

seriously though, isn’t the coupling showstopper the 380 hinged gangway, which means for some reason the electrical box is above the Dellner, the opposite layout to older Desiros.

 

[gingertom]

37 4-car units

ScotRail could find those very useful for when Barrhead and East Kilbride got electrified. Politically though, they are second hand and somebody's cast-offs so might not be welcomed. I think they'd be great, if not on these routes on others (Ayr? Inverclyde?) to allow the cascade of more suitable units. An option to seriously consider, if the price is right.

 

[37057]

They may not be coupling compatible, but they are classic Desiros in terms of the electrical kit etc - I understand ScotRail were quite specific that that was what they wanted and didn't want the unproven Desiro City kit.

Nah, they're not actually. 380s are more futuristic than the classics. I even had a look at the schemes for them once as I was curious myself - they're missing a lot of those 'classic' hard wired circuits.

 

[Clansman]

ScotRail could find those very useful for when Barrhead and East Kilbride got electrified. Politically though, they are second hand and somebody's cast-offs so might not be welcomed. I think they'd be great, if not on these routes on others (Ayr? Inverclyde?) to allow the cascade of more suitable units. An option to seriously consider, if the price is right.

The studies into what an electrified EK and Barrhead would look like rolling stock wise suggest 4/8 car EMUs at 23m per coach. In other words, 385s and 380s or equivilant; which would rule the 350s out.

Scotland wise, soon to be off-lease units and sub-fleets like the 350s and 379s couldn't really fall at a time when they would be needed less in their current states. There's routes in Scotland they would fit in nicely, but certainly not with the way things are today without any sort of large scale overhaul that makes them more attractive for TOCs to see benefit in investing in.

This section of the forum should be renamed "ridiculous ideas" rather then "speculative"!

Shame there isn't a fantasy section to compliment this one. Speculative threads are generally good at constructive discussion and exploring genuine proposals and the viability of them - not ideal when some die hard comes along with 100% conviction and belief that an EMU converted buffet equipped pacer can run on their local branchline along side HST hauled Eurostar coaches with adapted droplights, is something that's doable simply because it exists within the confines of their imagination!

 

[Bletchleyite]

ScotRail could find those very useful for when Barrhead and East Kilbride got electrified. Politically though, they are second hand and somebody's cast-offs so might not be welcomed.

They're not cast-offs in the usual "BR 1980s" sense, they are in very good condition (as far as passengers are concerned; no idea if corrosion repairs are needed as they were the older /1s) and are very good units to start with. Other than the 3+2 seating you don't hear complaints about them down here, only about the service

If they said they were going to reseat them to 2+2 as per EMR and the 360s, I doubt anyone would complain unless it was just a generic anti-English whine.

 

[Energy]

They're not cast-offs in the usual "BR 1980s" sense, they are in very good condition (as far as passengers are concerned; no idea if corrosion repairs are needed as they were the older /1s) and are very good units to start with. Other than the 3+2 seating you don't hear complaints about them down here, only about the service

If they said they were going to reseat them to 2+2 as per EMR and the 360s, I doubt anyone would complain unless it was just a generic anti-English whine.

I'm not sure if any of the public would notice they are cast offs, they are young units and are very reliable and good quality. If it is just the anti-English whine then that could apply to a lot of trains in Scotland as none were built in Scotland.

 

[gingertom]

I'm not sure if any of the public would notice they are cast offs, they are young units and are very reliable and good quality. If it is just the anti-English whine then that could apply to a lot of trains in Scotland as none were built in Scotland.

been a long time since trains were built in Scotland.

 

[66C]

I think the last trains built in Scotland were the Alexander's pacers. Have there been any complaints about the 12 class 321's that were reformed to class 320's. Passengers are happy with the extra rush hour capacity they provide on the Argyle line.

 

[Neptune]

I always understood that the 380’s were a hybrid between the original Desiros and the Desiro City, the main difference being the wiring.

 

[fgwrich]

ScotRail could find those very useful for when Barrhead and East Kilbride got electrified. Politically though, they are second hand and somebody's cast-offs so might not be welcomed. I think they'd be great, if not on these routes on others (Ayr? Inverclyde?) to allow the cascade of more suitable units. An option to seriously consider, if the price is right.

I've always felt personally that they would be excellent units for an electrified Fife Circle. They could also act as extra units for the Dunblane services, or find use on the Cathcart Circle allowing some 385s to be cascaded to East Kilbride from that.

 

[anthony263]

I'm sure if we had the wires up in south wales we could find some use for them especially if the wires were erected around Bristol too

 

[RichJF]

Bit of a long shot but could 350s be fitted with batteries, used on North Downs Gatwick-Reading, would they be able to charge their batteries enough on the 3rd rail sections to get over the non-electrified sections on battery power?

Aren't 769s nailed on for the North Downs route?

I still have a sneaky suspicion (based on gut instinct) if the Uckfield bi-mode gets the go ahead, a rolling stock merry go round will happen.
350/2s to Southeastern (in addition to the 707 Desiros they'll get), 377/5s back to GTR for conversion to bi-mode so they can run splitters on the Oxted lines.

 

[JonathanH]

Aren't 769s nailed on for the North Downs route?

I still have a sneaky suspicion (based on gut instinct) if the Uckfield bi-mode gets the go ahead, a rolling stock merry go round will happen.
350/2s to Southeastern (in addition to the 707 Desiros they'll get), 377/5s back to GTR for conversion to bi-mode so they can run splitters on the Oxted lines.

I think the speed of the door cycles on the 350s would count against them.

 

[Minstral25]

Aren't 769s nailed on for the North Downs route?

I still have a sneaky suspicion (based on gut instinct) if the Uckfield bi-mode gets the go ahead, a rolling stock merry go round will happen.
350/2s to Southeastern (in addition to the 707 Desiros they'll get), 377/5s back to GTR for conversion to bi-mode so they can run splitters on the Oxted lines.

Interesting that heavier old stock is often mooted as battery units, whilst suitable for bi-modes by adding diesel/hydrogen their weight makes them restrictive as battery trains where weight saving is crucial to performance. North Downs, Oxted and Marshlink are great places to put battery bi-modes due to opportunity to charge on long third rail sections but that really needs new lighter stock like Aventra or Desiro City not rehashing old heavy units like 350/2. Probably an order for Battery Third Rail is best on these routes

 

[Stephen Lee]

ScotRail could find those very useful for when Barrhead and East Kilbride got electrified. Politically though, they are second hand and somebody's cast-offs so might not be welcomed. I think they'd be great, if not on these routes on others (Ayr? Inverclyde?) to allow the cascade of more suitable units. An option to seriously consider, if the price is right.

Second-hand Lives Matter. Every option of extra train is equal for Scotrail to take whatever it is first-hand order or second-hand cascades.

 

[gingertom]

Second-hand Lives Matter. Every option of extra train is equal for Scotrail to take whatever it is first-hand order or second-hand cascades.

agreed. New builds take time, 2nd hand units already have approval. Driver training, gauge clearance and you're good to go.

 

[Stephen Lee]

agreed. New builds take time, 2nd hand units already have approval. Driver training, gauge clearance and you're good to go.

well..... new builts can suffer software problems like the bombardier aventras do but i hope the issue won't happen in the WMR/LNWR ones