Possible third rail electrifications

[XDM]

It does - be useful for the North Wales Coast and an extension of some services to Shotton and Flint (though I was called a lying ******* when I suggested this was looked at as part of the business case for the North Wales Coast electrification).

Well you certainly weren't a liar.

 

[urbophile]

In view of the aspiration to re-open the Wapping and/or Waterloo tunnels and link St Helens, Wigan etc into Merseyrail, dual voltage trains would be essential. Even if that proposal has slipped down the priority list somewhat.

 

[Bald Rick]

More big delays yesterday - 3rd rail out of alignment at Preston Park.

More big delays today - flooding at Clapham Jn (Sussex side) where the lines are fit to be opened but the presence of the live third rail is preventing it. (Acknowledging that there are lots of flood related delays today for other reasons too).

 

[Deepgreen]

Also flooded fast lines at Wimbledon - I suspect exacerbated by possible drainage leaks from the multi-storey car park above. The down Victoria slow at Clapham Junction was a river flowing towards the already submerged junction with the WLL. More torrential storms expected this afternoon - joy (much though I love a thunderstorm).

 

[A0]

More big delays yesterday - 3rd rail out of alignment at Preston Park.

More big delays today - flooding at Clapham Jn (Sussex side) where the lines are fit to be opened but the presence of the live third rail is preventing it. (Acknowledging that there are lots of flood related delays today for other reasons too).

You mean third rail infrastructure is liable to failure ? Surely not, after all there are so many,ahem, armchair experts here who keep telling us that third rail isn't susceptible to the kind of problems OHLE is. Particularly after the lightning strike around MK last week - where such storm conditions could only affect OHLE equipped lines........

 

[Bald Rick]

All power off Greenwich due to people on the tracks.... Can't happen with OLE.

(Bored already of doing this)

 

[A0]

All power off Greenwich due to people on the tracks.... Can't happen with OLE.

(Bored already of doing this)

Now to be fair you *could* leave the power on and just hope they don't stumble over the conductor rail.

Clearly if they do it makes an unpleasant mess which someone has to clear up, but again, our armchair experts don't believe that to be a problem.

Just to be clear - I have found a dead body, though not one which had suffered a major trauma - and I can assure any poster here who hasn't been through that, finding any dead body is traumatic enough.

 

[Deepgreen]

All power off Greenwich due to people on the tracks.... Can't happen with OLE.

(Bored already of doing this)

However, if people are on the tracks, even with OHLE, it must expected that no trains would move.

 

[hwl]

All power off Greenwich due to people on the tracks.... Can't happen with OLE.

(Bored already of doing this)

And steam coming from the 3rd rail equipment etc at West Norwood earlier:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClnqYP9WQAQ2qUC.jpg:large

 

[Bald Rick]

However, if people are on the tracks, even with OHLE, it must expected that no trains would move.

They would be moving, albeit at caution. And as soon as it is reported that no one is on the lineside, normal working is resumed (and there is no need to go through the process of recharging the power).

 

[DY444]

All power off Greenwich due to people on the tracks.... Can't happen with OLE.

(Bored already of doing this)

Remind me. Was it last week or the week before that the ole between Farringdon and Elstree was isolated in the evening peak due to an individual found riding on a freight train?

I appreciate the technical advantages of ole but it is not wholly free from its own reliability, weather and trespass issues either

 

[AndyNLondon]

And steam coming from the 3rd rail equipment etc at West Norwood earlier:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClnqYP9WQAQ2qUC.jpg:large

Is someone trying to boil away the flood water? And if so, does that mean that we can now call EMUs "kettles"?

 

[edwin_m]

Remind me. Was it last week or the week before that the ole between Farringdon and Elstree was isolated in the evening peak due to an individual found riding on a freight train?

I appreciate the technical advantages of ole but it is not wholly free from its own reliability, weather and trespass issues either

I think the point here is that the OLE only needs to be isolated in the fairly rare event of someone climbing onto a train or some other place where they are putting themselves at risk.

Third rail needs to be isolated whenever unauthorised people are reported on or near the track, which is much more frequent. And has the possible consequence of people in stranded trains pulling the emergency handles and going out onto the track. Then other bits of third rail may have to be isolated, so more trains are stranded, so more people pull the emergency handles and go out onto the track...

 

[XDM]

And the terrible delays continue at Paddington due to the 25kv gantry damage. Of course earlier,trains were stopped for hours because of OHL damage near Didcot, pain without any pleasure as not yet in service.

 

[Bald Rick]

And the terrible delays continue at Paddington due to the 25kv gantry damage.

Err, what? Normal working since Monday, except for the Greenford branch.

 

[A0]

Of course earlier,trains were stopped for hours because of OHL damage near Didcot, pain without any pleasure as not yet in service.

What was the root cause? If it was the inclement weather then the 3rd rail network has been impacted at least as much.

 

[swt_passenger]

What was the root cause? If it was the inclement weather then the 3rd rail network has been impacted at least as much.

Installation issue, I think this happened before the overnight weather issues. Probably something accidentally hanging down into the path of trains. It had been mentioned yesterday in the GW electrification thread.

 

[jadmor]

I see that scotrail are attributing overhead supply damage at Newton to bird strikes. I have never heard of this happening before, has anyone any comments on this?

 

[Deepgreen]

I see that scotrail are attributing overhead supply damage at Newton to bird strikes. I have never heard of this happening before, has anyone any comments on this?

I've not heard of this on the railway before, but I had the misfortune many years ago to witness a swan flying into a national grid line strung between pylons. A horrible sight.

 

[Bald Rick]

I see that scotrail are attributing overhead supply damage at Newton to bird strikes. I have never heard of this happening before, has anyone any comments on this?

Happens all the time; seen it happen myself. Rarely does it cause OLE damage though - this happens either with a high speed bird, or something bigger than a pigeon somehow bridging an insulator.

 

[childwallblues]

Not if Merseyrail are told to procure dual power EMUs like every other operator on NR track.

Edit: I've just checked and find that Bidston to Wrexham is about 50Km so 3rd rail wouldn't even stand up to a fairly equivocal comparison with OLE. Add in the safety issues and it would be turned around at the door. Looking at the local geography, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the line south from Wrexham to be electrified at some point in the future so the case for electrifying from scratch a long 50Km stretch with an obsolete system when the rest of the network south as far as the Thames would be OLE only would just be rejected outright.

Quite a few years ago Merseyside PTE asked Network Rail for a quote to electrify from Bidston to Wrexham. I understand that it was £80M for OHLE and a whopping £207M for 3rd rail!

 

[XDM]

It's well known among electricians that if you do not want to do a job you never say no,you quote a price five times more than you normally would. Very occasionally a mug falls for it & it pays for a shooting lodge in Scotland.
In the past Network Rail/Railtrack wanted to do very little. But the mug,ultimately our children on the NR credit card,fell for it. The benefit,though, is more electrification but at staggering prices re the past & the world.

 

[snowball]

Quite a few years ago Merseyside PTE asked Network Rail for a quote to electrify from Bidston to Wrexham. I understand that it was £80M for OHLE and a whopping £207M for 3rd rail!

Didn't steel sleepers play a part in that? How much does replacing all the sleepers cost?

 

[edwin_m]

It's well known among electricians that if you do not want to do a job you never say no,you quote a price five times more than you normally would. Very occasionally a mug falls for it & it pays for a shooting lodge in Scotland.
In the past Network Rail/Railtrack wanted to do very little. But the mug,ultimately our children on the NR credit card,fell for it. The benefit,though, is more electrification but at staggering prices re the past & the world.

If third rail is such as good idea why do you think all the experts at NR, ORR etc are dead against it? I really don't see what they would have to gain by not putting forward a system that is better, cheaper or whatever.

 

[Domh245]

If third rail is such as good idea why do you think all the experts at NR, ORR etc are dead against it? I really don't see what they would have to gain by not putting forward a system that is better, cheaper or whatever.

Ignoring experts seems to be the flavour of the month.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Ignoring experts seems to be the flavour of the month.

There seems to be a little resistance to 3rd rail not having a future with regard to new builds

 

[dggar]

Ignoring experts seems to be the flavour of the month.

Consulting experts may become a capitol offence soon.

 

[AM9]

There seems to be a little resistance to 3rd rail not having a future with regard to new builds

On an 8000amp low(er) voltage circuit, it only takes a very little resistance to make it very expensive and financially unjustifiable.

 

[snowball]

Proof that third rail is perfectly safe:

A cat survived for two days underneath one.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-saves-the-bacon-of-piggy-the-cat

 

[Domh245]

Proof that third rail is perfectly safe:

A cat survived for two days underneath one.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-saves-the-bacon-of-piggy-the-cat

I thought that name was quite funny. If only the cat had been rescued from somewhere on the SWML or between Gatwick and Victoria it'd have been even more fitting