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Possible third rail electrifications

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swt_passenger

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I get that, the possible justification for doing it could be because there has to be a limit on how many more central London tunnels that there would be space for (without being crazily deep). IF it was something that was going to be done, you would want to do it at a time when there was capacity on other lines which run parallel to it (so probably sooner rather than later).

Although it also depends on how much better than the Bakerloo it would be. An extra 50 people per train, then probably not worth it, however extra 50% plus per train along with some other benefits (maybe speed) then it could be worth thinking about.

I think boring out to a larger diameter becomes extremely difficult for a number of reasons, such as proximity of the two existing tunnels to one another, they are normally reasonably close together between stations. Station enlargement would be a bit of a nightmare, especially if the platforms are already aligned parallel with other lines for cross platform interchange - Oxford Circus wrt the Victoria line being a good example. To extend platforms lengthways to Crossrail type sizes, and keep them flat and straight at the same time would mean you'd need all that free space underground at either end of an existing station, which is exactly where the lines tend to be curving, or rising or falling, or crossing over or under other lines. A Crossrail size station would also need much wider platforms, and potentially more circulation area between the platforms at the foot of the escalators to cope with the significant increase in passengers. You might even want more surface entrances, and double the number of escalators, as seen on both Crossrail 1 and 2 with their double ended stations in the central area.

It could be that the running tunnels away from stations become the easiest part of any enlargement, with the issues at stations themselves being the main stumbling block.
 
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Bald Rick

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To add to what swt_passenger has said:

In some place existing tunnels are threaded between other tunnels (and there's an awful lot of non-railway tunnels under London) building foundations, sewers etc. Making the tunnel diameter larger (and it would be nearly 3 metres larger) would inevitably mean encroaching on something else, somewhere. You can see what happened when platforms were extended on this line a long time ago, at Piccadilly Circus.

Similarly, some of the corners on the Bakerloo are pretty tight, and the new enlarged tunnel would have to go 'off line' to provide curves of a generous enough radius. (Or you build the whole tunnel even wider for its whole length to compensate).

A Crossrail train has more than twice the passenger capacity of a Bakerloo line train (as they are nearly twice as long, with full width gangways and no intermediate cabs), so the vertical capacity in the stations would generally need to double. This also means sorting out the interchanges with other lines, or in some cases closing them altogether, as there would be no way of doing it. In addition, secondary means of escape would need to be provided for the extended platforms, all the way to the surface. These could double as second entrances.

Then there are the train depots to think of. They would need to be more than twice as large. That means new depots. Answers on a postcard as to where abouts they could go.

Besides, the reason the Bakerloo takes longer than the Jubilee between Waterloo and Baker Street is that there are two more stops!
 
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Deepgreen

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To add to what swt_passenger has said:



Besides, the reason the Bakerloo takes longer than the Jubilee between Waterloo and Baker Street is that there are two more stops!

Quite, plus the fact that the JL trains are ATO and have superior performance.
 
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cjmillsnun

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The unsourced claim dc uses 20% more power for the same work,doesn't reflect lighter trains due to not dragging transformers about & no regime for checking power isn't leaking to earth due to ballast etc piled up on third rail. I accept DC properly maintained will use about 10% more power at southern speeds because of the high current, but that is balanced by the far lower cost of the third rail versus the staggering cost of ever more sophisticated & unsightly AC knitting.

The trouble is no vested interest is batting for third rail,as minor infill.

The transmission losses for LV DC are well known and there is a report from the BTC in the 50s (available on the railways archive http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1135 I can't quite as I am on my phone) that shows the electricity cost per annum of 25 KV AC versus the cost of 1500 DC overhead (which in itself will have fewer transmission losses than 750v DC third rail) is about 12% lower. Factoring in the extra transmission losses (something I was taught about in GCSE Physics) then the calculation of 20% is reasonable.

Extra transformers means extra maintenance. Something that can be done in depot as part of routine operations with AC rolling stock as opposed to site visits with DC. The same report from the BTC put the increased maintenance cost for DC as greater than 10% per annum. This without adding vandalism to substation buildings as this is unlikely to have been considered back then.

The BTC's conclusion back in the fifties was that 25 KV OHLE was a no brainier. I see little that would mean that the same conclusion was not reached today. With the greater environmental concerns now the case for converting life expired DC to OHLE becomes more compelling and the definitions of reasonably practicable for retention of existing DC systems would change towards conversion wherever possible.
 
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hwl

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The transmission losses for LV DC are well known and there is a report from the BTC in the 50s (available on the railways archive http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1135 I can't quite as I am on my phone) that shows the electricity cost per annum of 25 KV AC versus the cost of 1500 DC overhead (which in itself will have fewer transmission losses than 750v DC third rail) is about 12% lower. Factoring in the extra transmission losses (something I was taught about in GCSE Physics) then the calculation of 20% is reasonable.

Extra transformers means extra maintenance. Something that can be done in depot as part of routine operations with AC rolling stock as opposed to site visits with DC. The same report from the BTC put the increased maintenance cost for DC as greater than 10% per annum. This without adding vandalism to substation buildings as this is unlikely to have been considered back then.

The BTC's conclusion back in the fifties was that 25 KV OHLE was a no brainier. I see little that would mean that the same conclusion was not reached today. With the greater environmental concerns now the case for converting life expired DC to OHLE becomes more compelling and the definitions of reasonably practicable for retention of existing DC systems would change towards conversion wherever possible.

Indeed and Bournemouth got 3rd rail electrification because they couldn't install 25kv OHLE before the scheduled withdrawal of steam but they could do 3rd rail!

The simplest NR document showing OHLE vs 3rd rail loss comparison lately is probably:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...closed 07 july 2010/ec4t loss report v1.0.pdf

P13 vs p15 is fairly simple comparison...
 

Deepgreen

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Indeed and Bournemouth got 3rd rail electrification because they couldn't install 25kv OHLE before the scheduled withdrawal of steam but they could do 3rd rail!

The simplest NR document showing OHLE vs 3rd rail loss comparison lately is probably:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...closed 07 july 2010/ec4t loss report v1.0.pdf

P13 vs p15 is fairly simple comparison...

I had always assumed it was because in the 1960s, the concept of a nationwide unified electrification regime hadn't been accepted (or even proposed) and that the logical choice for what was then the Southern Region was third rail extension. H&S risks were hardly considered compared with today, and the cost of providing and maintaining AC as well as DC rolling stock would have been prohibitive.

If it was simply only a matter of time, I would have thought steam could have hung on for a while longer (early 70s?), despite the BR strategic view, especially as the Bulleid rebuilds were still quite young by the mid-60s. The thought of rail blue 'Merchants' with yellow warning panels springs to mind! Armchair alternative history scenarios, eh!
 
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JohnR

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The modernisation plan of the 1950s (to be exact, the 1957 Reappraisal), envisaged 25kV overhead to Bournemouth and Exeter out of Waterloo.
 

Deepgreen

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The modernisation plan of the 1950s (to be exact, the 1957 Reappraisal), envisaged 25kV overhead to Bournemouth and Exeter out of Waterloo.

I had never realised that - useful information; thanks. Was any stock provision and route equipment detailed or was it simply an outline concept?
 

Philip Phlopp

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Indeed and Bournemouth got 3rd rail electrification because they couldn't install 25kv OHLE before the scheduled withdrawal of steam but they could do 3rd rail!

The simplest NR document showing OHLE vs 3rd rail loss comparison lately is probably:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...closed 07 july 2010/ec4t loss report v1.0.pdf

P13 vs p15 is fairly simple comparison...

You probably want this PDF instead, much more detailed.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064784498
 

hwl

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I had always assumed it was because in the 1960s, the concept of a nationwide unified electrification regime hadn't been accepted (or even proposed) and that the logical choice for what was then the Southern Region was third rail extension. H&S risks were hardly considered compared with today, and the cost of providing and maintaining AC as well as DC rolling stock would have been prohibitive.

If it was simply only a matter of time, I would have thought steam could have hung on for a while longer (early 70s?), despite the BR strategic view, especially as the Bulleid rebuilds were still quite young by the mid-60s. The thought of rail blue 'Merchants' with yellow warning panels springs to mind! Armchair alternative history scenarios, eh!

Given they couldn't get the WCML done in one go, Bournemouth OHLE was probably an electrification scheme too far!
 

AM9

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I had never realised that - useful information; thanks. Was any stock provision and route equipment detailed or was it simply an outline concept?

Had the route been electrified between '60 and about '65, I would envisage something like a class 309 (with CEP/CIG style ends of course).
 

Philip Phlopp

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Had the route been electrified between '60 and about '65, I would envisage something like a class 309 (with CEP/CIG style ends of course).

And just what would the Southern Region have done with all their life expired old tat if they couldn't send it away to be fitted under a nice new coach ?

Oh aye, they would have had to come and join us in the 20th century (as was, at the time).

The only things which should be collecting electricity on the bottom are made by Hornby.
 

edwin_m

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The modernisation plan of the 1950s (to be exact, the 1957 Reappraisal), envisaged 25kV overhead to Bournemouth and Exeter out of Waterloo.

I had never realised that - useful information; thanks. Was any stock provision and route equipment detailed or was it simply an outline concept?

Me neither. Was it proposing dual electrification from wherever was the end of third rail at the time (Basingstoke?), conversion to 25kV or dual voltage stock?

As shown by the 313 nearly a decade later, the state of the art for dual voltage stock at the time was a DC camshaft fed by a transformer and rectifier when in 25kV mode. This still has many of the maintenance problems and some of the energy wastage of a 750V unit even when running on 25kV. It's only really with modern traction electronics that dual-voltage capability can be added at little extra cost, and probably only the advent of privatisation in general and ROSCOs in particular that have made it standard practice for new EMUs.
 

swt_passenger

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Me neither. Was it proposing dual electrification from wherever was the end of third rail at the time (Basingstoke?), conversion to 25kV or dual voltage stock?

I think the DC boundary at that time was Pirbright Junction for Alton.

However I've just been reading through various modernisation plan reports on the railway archive website, and so far I cannot find any anything specific about electrification to Exeter and Weymouth.

There's plenty of explanations for 25 kV becoming the new national standard, but I cannot find anything about that particular route.

Perhaps JohnR may have a different document in mind?

This from 1956 gives the background to the 25 kV AC decision:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BTC_Electrification1955.pdf

...and this seems to be the only Modernisation Plan reappraisal, although it is dated 1959:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BTC_Reappraisal1959.pdf


This post wasn't intended to be a criticism, as it was new news to me I thought I'd look it up, but I cannot find a suitable statement in the docs I've found so far.
 
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Tio Terry

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The legal position in respect of Electrification Systems for Mainline Railways is explained in the Technical Specification for Interoperability - Energy. This, in brief, says future schemes shall be 25KV OHEL.

However (there's always a However with TSI's!), there is provision made for specifically UK 3rd and 4th rail systems:-

7.4.2.9.1. Voltage and frequency
(4.2.3) P case

It is permissible to continue to upgrade, renew and extend networks equipped with the electrification system operating at 600/750 V DC and utilising conductor rails in a three and/or four rail configuration in accordance with the national technical rules notified for this purpose. Specific case for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, applying only to the mainline network in Great Britain.


The "and extend" bit would apply to any "new" 3rd rail. I would not allow any new 3rd rail that was not an extension to an existing system.

Of course, the ORR/DfT may make rulings within the UK on the application of NTR's so their word would be final on the matter.
 

AM9

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Me neither. Was it proposing dual electrification from wherever was the end of third rail at the time (Basingstoke?), conversion to 25kV or dual voltage stock?

As shown by the 313 nearly a decade later, the state of the art for dual voltage stock at the time was a DC camshaft fed by a transformer and rectifier when in 25kV mode. This still has many of the maintenance problems and some of the energy wastage of a 750V unit even when running on 25kV. It's only really with modern traction electronics that dual-voltage capability can be added at little extra cost, and probably only the advent of privatisation in general and ROSCOs in particular that have made it standard practice for new EMUs.

The biggest difference in power wastage is down to the 3rd rail supply, particularly on long distance routes. On those lines, the normal running of express services would be at or near the DC motors' balancing speeds, so in reality, not much resistive loss in traction speed control.
Chopper control of DC motors was in use on trains in some European countries before the UK, (ISTR that the class 319s were the first EMUs here), although early designs sometimes played havoc with signal systems. ISTR that the class AL5 had electronic traction control in the '60s but they were AC only of course.
 
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edwin_m

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The biggest difference in power wastage is down to the 3rd rail supply, particularly on long distance routes. On those lines, the normal running of express services would be at or near the DC motors' balancing speeds, so in reality, not much resistive loss in traction speed control.
Chopper control of DC motors was in use on trains in some European countries before the UK, (ISTR that the class 319s were the first EMUs here), although early designs sometimes played havoc with signal systems. ISTR that the class AL5 had electronic traction control in the '60s but they were AC only of course.

Indeed so, and apologies if my post came across as suggesting otherwise. The resistors would be switched out when running at a steady speed anyway, as I don't believe they were rated for continuous use.

I agree the 319 was the first UK class to have chopper control, but I think a few 455s were fitted experimentally before that.

The corresponding electromechanical control for AC traction was the tap changer, which although also involving lots of switching did not involve resistors and could run indefinitely on any power setting. This effectively varied the number of turns in one winding of the transformer so that the voltage fed to the rectifiers was similarly varied. This was replaced, from class 314/315 onwards I think, by phase angle control which has no moving parts but is a lot simpler than a chopper.
 
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Bald Rick

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Indeed and Bournemouth got 3rd rail electrification because they couldn't install 25kv OHLE before the scheduled withdrawal of steam but they could do 3rd rail!

...

Not sure that's right. Was Manchester - Crewe fully dieselised at electrification? And how do all those steam engines run under the wires now?
 
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JohnElliott

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Me neither. Was it proposing dual electrification from wherever was the end of third rail at the time (Basingstoke?), conversion to 25kV or dual voltage stock?

The BTC report linked upthread seemed to be anticipating dual-voltage AC/DC locos, though it admitted that they'd be a more complicated proposition than dual voltage DC/DC locos.

Or maybe they'd have used the same REP+TC system, only with an AC loco instead of a diesel.
 

mr_jrt

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Not sure that's right. Was Manchester - Crewe fully dieselised at electrification? And how do all those steam engines run under the wires now?

Wasn't there a lot on consternation back when this was all very new and very much an unknown? ISTR reading that it was regarded that a (now known to not be required) excessively large distance was required to prevent "incidents" between the steam and the wires at 25kV AC. This is what lead to the tracks being lowered, neutral sections under bridges and 6.25 kV AC being used in constrained locations when the GEML was converted from 1500v DC to 25kV AC.

We now know this isn't required so the voltage was upped to the standard 25kV, but still.
 

AM9

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Wasn't there a lot on consternation back when this was all very new and very much an unknown? ISTR reading that it was regarded that a (now known to not be required) excessively large distance was required to prevent "incidents" between the steam and the wires at 25kV AC. This is what lead to the tracks being lowered, neutral sections under bridges and 6.25 kV AC being used in constrained locations when the GEML was converted from 1500v DC to 25kV AC.

We now know this isn't required so the voltage was upped to the standard 25kV, but still.

The GEML was electrified to the (then) standard of 1500VDC. This mandated a static clearance of 4 inches from conductor to grounded structures and vehicles (e.g. roofs, funnels etc.). The conversion to 25kVac OLE mandated a static clearance of 11 inches to grounded parts. For locations where that clearance would have been too disruptive or expensive to maintain, a nominal voltage of 6.25kV* was allowed using the existing 4 inch installation clearances. In the case of the GEML, this meant that the physical OLE from Liverpool St right out to the Mountnessing 25kV switchover point (on the main line just past Shenfield), could be used unchanged, including the original 1500VDC insulators. By the time that the conversion was undertaken, the line to Southend Victoria was also wired with 1500VDC, so that was destined to be the reduced ac voltage whereas the main line from Mountnessing out to Clacton and Walton would be at the full 25kV. There were similar arrangements south of Manchester.
The method of providing a 25/6.25kV capability in locos and EMUs was to have a main transformer with four equal separate primary windings. By means of switchgear, these windings could be connected in series for 25kV operation and in parallel for 6.25kV areas. The switchgear was under the control of trackside baliases, and set the switchgear for the appropriate supply voltage at the changeover point.
This dual voltage arrangement could have survived to today except for two issues:
1) some of the EMUs had a design shortfall that meant occasionally, they would not satifactorially revert to the full serial 25kV configuration when entering a high voltage section. This applied four times the nominal voltage across the transformer primary causing 16 times the normal power dissipation in the transformer, with spectacular catastrophic failures, usually involving a fire that destroyed the motor car.
2) the number of trains running on these lines and their lower power requirements in the early days was not a siginificant problem. It is likely that current power demands would have required an increase in the number of feed points at 6.25kV. The GEML did however have the benefit of much heavier OLE conductors and catenaries, originally required for the lower DC voltage.​
At some point in the mid '60s, tests were performed (ISTR at Crewe) where a steam loco was parked under the live conductor which was progressively lowered until there was a flashover to its highest point. This determined the smallest safe clearance for 25kV which I think was about 6.5 inches.
Following the redefiniton of the minimum distance, it meant that the lines with 6.25kV could be upgraded to 25kV, albeit with some structural modifications and certainly for the GEML, the replacement of the original 1500V simple insulators with compact multi-disc versions suitable for 25kV. At the same time, many of the original feed points were disconnected and the remainder upgraded to 25kV.

* The original report in the '50s recommending the lower voltage for reduced clearance stipulated 6.5kV following the trial on the Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham line. This was later reduced to 6.25kV (25kV/4) to allow the use of four-primary transformers in the trains (see above).
 
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edwin_m

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The BTC report linked upthread seemed to be anticipating dual-voltage AC/DC locos, though it admitted that they'd be a more complicated proposition than dual voltage DC/DC locos.

Or maybe they'd have used the same REP+TC system, only with an AC loco instead of a diesel.

I had a look at those links after posting, and I agree they decided dual-voltage was possible though more complicated than single-voltage.

Although the report endorsed Kent Coast electrification going ahead with third rail, there were a couple of mentions that 25kV might be considered for future electrification in the South Western part of the Southern Region. But it doesn't appear that any such scheme (at any voltage) was on the cards in 1959.
 

Deepgreen

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And just what would the Southern Region have done with all their life expired old tat if they couldn't send it away to be fitted under a nice new coach ?

Oh aye, they would have had to come and join us in the 20th century (as was, at the time).

The only things which should be collecting electricity on the bottom are made by Hornby.

So, you support a modelling manufacturing monopoly, then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure that's right. Was Manchester - Crewe fully dieselised at electrification? And how do all those steam engines run under the wires now?

Not sure if HWL was suggesting that it was the time factor preventing OHLE or the clearance issue with steam. Bulleids with diagonal cab stripes wouldn't have found full use there!
 

snowball

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There were similar arrangements south of Manchester.
I either didn't know, or had forgotten, that there was ever any 6.25kV around Manchester. There was certainly some around Glasgow, e.g. Cathcart loop.
At some point in the mid '60s, tests were performed (ISTR at Crewe) where a steam loco was parked under the live conductor which was progressively lowered until there was a flashover to its highest point.
Wasn't it in the Independent Lines tunnel, in order to provide a worst case? Maximise the effect of the steam?
 

edwin_m

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I either didn't know, or had forgotten, that there was ever any 6.25kV around Manchester. There was certainly some around Glasgow, e.g. Cathcart loop.

I wondered about that too, as I seem to remember Class 86 didn't have 6.25kV capability (maybe 81-85 didn't either?). Only the Stockport and Styal routes were originally electrified and barring the largest electric loco class from either would have been far too restrictive. I don't think electric freight could run on the GE until the 6.25kV was eliminated in the 80s.
 

hwl

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Not sure that's right. Was Manchester - Crewe fully diesel at electrification? And how do all those steam engines run under the wires now?

I'm just paraphrasing the engineer in charge of electrifications very extensive report on the Bournemouth scheme. OHLE was estimated to take an addition 2 years to complete which would have left a motive power gap between Steam and Electrification and they didn't want to purchase more diesels for such short period of time. The report also covers the design of REPs conversion of cl71s to 74s as they couldn't build EMU fast enough and all the issues that would come up again when the enhancement were needed decades later for 444s and 450s.
 
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Deepgreen

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I'm just paraphrasing the engineer in charge of electrifications very extensive report on the Bournemouth scheme. OHLE was estimated to take an addition 2 years to complete which would have left a motive power gap between Steam and Electrification and they didn't want to purchase more diesels for such short period of time. The report also covers the design of REPs conversion of cl71s to 74s as they couldn't build EMU fast enough and all the issue that would come up again when the enhancement were needed for 444s and 450s.

They were considering the 444/450 family in 1957? Sorry if I've misunderstood you. Could not the steam era have been extended as I suggested earlier, until say 1970? Partly rhetorical here, as I'm aware there aren't any definitive answers!
 
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hwl

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They were considering the 444/450 family in 1967? Sorry if I've misunderstood you. Could not the steam era have been extended as I suggested earlier, until say 1970? Partly rhetorical here, as I'm aware there aren't any definitive answers!

Edited to clarify.
The number of substations was the bare minimum at the maximum spacing they could get away with.
 
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Deepgreen

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Edited to clarify.
The number of substations was the bare minimum at the maximum spacing they could get away with.

I wrote 1957 because that was the date of the report first mentioned, rather than the actual electrification date (which started on site in 1965/6 in any case).

Anyhoo, thanks.
 

XDM

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No Poster can seriously claim that failed third rail is as disruptive as failed overhead. Yesterday & this morning Paddington was frozen by damaged overhead & 2 days before a lightening strike at Blisworth on the overheads on the WCML ruined services for 5 hours.
A Poster said he would find figures to prove third rail had more deaths than 25kv. He made his excuses and left,nothing provided.
Another Poster linked to a study showing DC used x% more kWh for the same work as AC. If you read the small print the study said it was power consumed at entry to the train,not into the motors. Totally unfair to DC,all the power goes to the motors to move the train. On AC it then has to go through transformers which lose up to 20% of the power before it goes into traction.
This no more DC attitude,using spurious arguments, means routes like ore to ashford,Uckfield to hurst green,Reigate to Guildford etc cannot be filled in.
So we have to use dated diesels. No one is advocating Third rail for anything more than fill ins. It can't deliver the power for more than about 100mph. But if the third rail is kept clear of ballast(at Paddington today I noticed NR had piled it right up to LUL's third rail from platform 14),it's economical & easily done & easy on the eye & what is wrong with that if it allows the railway to be more economic?
 
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