Possible third rail electrifications

[contrex]

Okay, I've been trying not to bite but I give in - what on Earth does this have to do with Europe?

(Apologies all, I just had to ask.)

It is a joke. (or a trope? or a meme?). You may have noticed on the web especially in below-the-line comments on newspaper stories, people taking any opportunity to insert pro-Brexit remarks, so much so that it has become a joke to put them under any story at all. For what it's worth, I really like older electrical technology, for historical interest, although I shudder at the open-frame machines etc of the early days. For what it's also worth, I have a "Vote Labour" board standing in my front garden left over from the local elections, and they are going to send me a "Remain" sticker to add to it.

 

[najaB]

It is a joke. (or a trope? or a meme?).

Ah, okay. Sorry for spoiling it.

 

[contrex]

Ah, okay. Sorry for spoiling it.

Please don't worry, you didn't spoil it at all!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Has anyone mentioned that the Regulator has pronounced a block on further DC electrification (new or extensions)?

Good thing or not (and I don't care, personally) DC ain't going to be funded by BritGov PLC.

 

[A0]

Maybe it's time we had a heritage railway with 3rd rail (yes I'm aware of the Volks railway before anyone mentions it).

But I was thinking standard gauge..... Bluebell's Ardingly branch would be a possibility..... and there's always no shortage of enthusiasts who *have* to stand in just the right place to get a specific shot.... perhaps the introduction of a 3rd rail heritage line would thin a few of those out as well........

 

[HowardGWR]

Maybe it's time we had a heritage railway with 3rd rail (yes I'm aware of the Volks railway before anyone mentions it).

But I was thinking standard gauge..... Bluebell's Ardingly branch would be a possibility..... and there's always no shortage of enthusiasts who *have* to stand in just the right place to get a specific shot.... perhaps the introduction of a 3rd rail heritage line would thin a few of those out as well........

I think they have considered this.

 

[notlob.divad]

There will be no significant new 3rd rail extensions. No one's suggesting the Midland Main Line be electrified with 750v DC. It also depends on what you consider 'short' extensions. Like all directives, it's open to interpretation. That's quite deliberate and one is supposed to apply common sense when referencing it. I consider the few muted Meseyrail extensions as 'short' for example and so see no need why they can't be 3rd rail, bar extension to Warrington. Some have read the same thing as 'no new third rail whatsoever' though and not only that but also any already extant should be changed over.

Consider this: Despite being mooted as an easy and simple extension of some 1.5 miles to instate the Headbolt Lane station, it was not done. Could the larger part of this reason be because it was to be 3rd rail electrified to fit in with the existing infrastructure and rolling stock. Furthermore, given a future scheme to Skelmersdale has been in the pipeline for some time, could the idea that a piecemeal creeping 3rd rail extension was a likely result of any agreement to build Headbolt Lane not have been additional reason for it not going forward. More recently the planned electrification of Bolton to Wigan has in my opinion only furthered the case that any 3rd rail extension beyond Kirkby (the most likely candidate) will not be accepted and thus how 'short' a section must be to be considered 'short'.

As others have stated I don't see any further 3rd rail electrification unless both ends of said extension are already 3rd rail. With the exception of tunnels where the costs of re-boring would make the cost prohibitively expensive and even then I think it more likely to not happen than be 3rd rail.

Therefore, it is my strongly held opinion that any Kirkby - Skelmersdale / Wigan extension of Merseyrail will be via OHLE at a time when an infill Salford - Southport is done. Given at this time the track between Fazakerley and Rainford will undoubtedly be redoubled, it will also be re-instated with OHLE and thus the changeover point has moved inwards at least as far as Fazakerley if not Rice Lane.

As has been mentioned above by others, potential Chester & Southport OHLE, the issue at Hunts Cross, the complications of 3rd rail beyond Ellesmere Port, the desire to bring the Borderlands line, Burscough South Curve, and extensions to Skelmersdale into the network show that almost all sections of the Merseyrail network are vulnerable to the gradual replacement of 3rd rail.

The higher ongoing cost of maintenance and losses combined with the potential to distribute power over a significantly wider area from centralized locations, in turn requiring further reduced maintenance and manning. Will always be enough to bias the balance in favour of OHLE over 3rd rail for as large a portion of the network as possible.

 

[WatcherZero]

That would be a major headache for Merseyrail if they needed different stock to serve Skelmersdale. Their new train order specified fitting for but not with OHLE.

 

[Gareth]

Consider this: Despite being mooted as an easy and simple extension of some 1.5 miles to instate the Headbolt Lane station, it was not done. Could the larger part of this reason be because it was to be 3rd rail electrified to fit in with the existing infrastructure and rolling stock

I doubt it. I'm pretty sure part of the case for that extension was the proposed Everton FC move to Kirkby, which, of course, fell through. That said, Merseytravel haven't given up on it entirely. However, it makes sense to build it at the same time as extending to Skelmersdale. Both the current and future replacement stock are/will be 3rd rail capable so no, I doubt there was any issue there and if there was, we'd know about it. In regards to your wider post, we're just simply not going to agree, notlob and it'll just go round in circles.

 

[AM9]

... we're just simply not going to agree, notlob and it'll just go round in circles.

Or cycles

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Or cycles

Watt's that?

 

[Bald Rick]

Or cycles

Oh that pun hertz.

 

[AM9]

Oh that pun hertz.

It has the potential to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Watt's that?

Rearrange into a (phonetically) meaningful benefit of HVAC.

eyes are less squared

 

[Deepgreen]

Despite various articles in the railway and wider press about, for example, North Downs electrification, there will absolutely not be any more third rail electrification in Britain. The government/NR have issued an embargo on it and even the smallest and seemingly most sensible projects simply are not going to happen. Until a 25kV programme is instigated, the status quo remains.

 

[Mikey C]

And 3rd rail DC electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Probably the last new 3rd rail line was the Surrey Keys to Old Kent Road junction link on the London Overground. It is a short twin track link of about 1.5KM length completely surrounded by ex SR 3rd rail. It is 3KM from any 25kV OLE line (LT&S) on the other side of the River Thames.
I doubt that any stretch of track that isn't 3rd rail at both ends now (apart form sidings) will ever be newly electrified with 3rd rail. If there is any chance of OLE going up near either end it would be delayed or included in the next 25kV scheme.

I was slightly surprised that the Overground extension from Whitechapel to Dalston/Highbury & Islington was also built with 3rd rail, as the North London Line which it connects to is OHLE. I guess the inconvenience of having to switch power near Whitechapel ruled out OHLE, especially as through trains don't run pas H&I.

 

[XDM]

This ban has been mentioned before,but where is the evidence? Can anybody point to an authoritative absolute ban- from RSSB,ORR,NR,for example,& including chapter & verse? I would be staggered if the 'Government' had decreed a ban When & where?

 

[snowball]

Rearrange into a (phonetically) meaningful benefit of HVAC.

The first time I saw the abbreviation HVAC I assumed it meant high voltage alternating current.

Perhaps that proves I'm a chav.

 

[3270]

This ban has been mentioned before,but where is the evidence? Can anybody point to an authoritative absolute ban- from RSSB,ORR,NR,for example,& including chapter & verse? I would be staggered if the 'Government' had decreed a ban When & where?

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

"Where development of the network involves considering new DC third rail electrification (which includes extension of existing infrastructure)
there is a full assessment of the safety, technical and economic benefits of installing alternative electrification systems by the relevant duty holder."

" There is a presumption against the reasonable practicability of new-build or extended DC third rail in view of the safety requirements duty holders must satisfy in order to justify the use of third rail. "

"A duty holder proposing the laying of new bare third rail (as used across the legacy network) would therefore have to make a compelling case that it had considered all other possibilities and could satisfactorily demonstrate that all such possibilities would be grossly disproportionate in comparison to using third rail."

It isn't an outright ban as such but it makes it clear that getting permission for more third rail is not going to be at all easy or even financially feasible.

 

[Camden]

It isn't an outright ban as such but it makes it clear that getting permission for more third rail is not going to be at all easy or even financially feasible.

It doesn't read to me as either of those things. If a network (Merseyrail) already operate miles of third rail route then they already meet the safety requirements, meaning no issue in replicating that elsewhere. With a fleet of third rail trains, a third rail network, and a need to expand the network, I think a compelling case can be made for creating a third rail extension, with any report into AC electrification detailing the extra un-necessary costs involved (train conversion, extra maintenance, etc, etc) showing it is prohibitive.

Not only should they be able to meet these needs, but should the rules prove to be any kind of problem I think there is a strong case here for a future Liverpool City Region mayor to make political gold out of highlighting money being wasted by a control freak Westminster imposing arbitrary rules and barriers that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and in so doing stifling the local economy's progress.

And this is the area where it will make a difference, with the other third rail locations not being an issue. I expect the area simply hasn't been considered in any of this.

While I can recall a steady stream of instances (including in the Liverpool area) of people being electrocuted by OHLE, I can't recall a single instance where the same has happened through third rail. It's hardly evidence based policy making, and deserves to be slapped down.

 

[A0]

It doesn't read to me as either of those things. If a network (Merseyrail) already operate miles of third rail route then they already meet the safety requirements, meaning no issue in replicating that elsewhere.

Rubbish - the routes which are unelectrified would need to be brought up to the same standard - and you're assuming risk areas are the same at all places, which they aren't.

With a fleet of third rail trains, a third rail network, and a need to expand the network, I think a compelling case can be made for creating a third rail extension, with any report into AC electrification detailing the extra un-necessary costs involved (train conversion, extra maintenance, etc, etc) showing it is prohibitive.

Pretty much all the EMUs introduced in the last 10 years are easily converted to OHL from 3rd rail. Given the move to standardise the rolling stock in use, it would be stupid to start stipulating 3rd rail only stock on the mainline network.

Not only should they be able to meet these needs, but should the rules prove to be any kind of problem I think there is a strong case here for a future Liverpool City Region mayor to make political gold out of highlighting money being wasted by a control freak Westminster imposing arbitrary rules and barriers that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and in so doing stifling the local economy's progress.

Yes, let's make it a political issue (rolls eyes). The fact is standards are put in place for various reasons - safety being one of them, cost effectiveness being another. If BR hadn't started to standardise you'd still be looking at having a mix of 1500v DC, 25kv, 6.25kv, 750v DC, 1200v DC.

And this is the area where it will make a difference, with the other third rail locations not being an issue. I expect the area simply hasn't been considered in any of this.

FFS - area is irrelevant - the fact is having third rail IS more dangerous. It's more dangerous for those who are meant to be trackside let alone those who shouldn't be. Didn't you read Bald Rick's explanation as to why 3rd rail is a PITA from a maintenance perspective? You lose a huge amount of time putting in place safety restrictions to ensure trackside workers are safe and then undoing it at the end - losing about 50% of the maintenance window in the process.

While I can recall a steady stream of instances (including in the Liverpool area) of people being electrocuted by OHLE, I can't recall a single instance where the same has happened through third rail. It's hardly evidence based policy making, and deserves to be slapped down.

Perhaps someone will come along here with some statistics which disprove that point. The only times I'm aware of people being injured by the OHLE is when they are doing stupid things i.e. climbing on the roof of a train, waving a metallic object from a bridge - those kind of things. Whilst people *shouldn't* trespass on the railways the fact is there are no shortage of trespassers who *have* been electrocuted through coming into contact with the conductor rail. There was even an incident I saw an RAIB report for a year or so back, where a freight driver was electrocuted when he simply brushed the rail when inspecting the couplings - whilst he *may* not have been following the process to the letter, the fact is if that line had been electrified with OHL he would still be here today.

 

[po8crg]

It's actually being looked at as part of the possible North Wales Coast electrification and what to do to avoid DC at Chester. It probably won't come to much, but it's something that is being looked into.

The idea would be a changeover from DC to AC somewhere outside Chester, or possibly even at Hooton, as that creates the option of sending units that are unable to change to AC down to Ellesmere Port and out of the way.

If the Mid Cheshire was getting electrified at the same or a similar time (or, at least, the Chester-Warrington section of the Mid-Cheshire), then it could make a lot of sense to AC convert Hooton-Chester and Hooton-Ellesmere Port and extend the AC from EP to Helsby.

It would simplify the infrastructure to a single changeover point at Hooton and make Chester (and Helsby) much simpler operationally as all platforms would then be open to all trains.

The other conversion of Merseyrail I could potentially see is Bidston-West Kirkby alongside electrification of the Borderlands line (or part thereof). It would provide for a much simpler track/wires layout at Bidston station.

I suppose if Southport-Wigan ever got electrified, it might make sense to pull the DC back to Birkdale just to simplify the layout around Southport station.

As for third-rail extension, a tunnel from Cressington (or LSP) to the airport would be a lot cheaper to construct third rail than OHLE. Trains that currently terminate at Liverpool Central could then all run through to a new airport station, so it would also be very handy not to have to put pantos on every Northern Line train.

 

[A0]

If the Mid Cheshire was getting electrified at the same or a similar time (or, at least, the Chester-Warrington section of the Mid-Cheshire), then it could make a lot of sense to AC convert Hooton-Chester and Hooton-Ellesmere Port and extend the AC from EP to Helsby.

It would simplify the infrastructure to a single changeover point at Hooton and make Chester (and Helsby) much simpler operationally as all platforms would then be open to all trains.

The other conversion of Merseyrail I could potentially see is Bidston-West Kirkby alongside electrification of the Borderlands line (or part thereof). It would provide for a much simpler track/wires layout at Bidston station.

I suppose if Southport-Wigan ever got electrified, it might make sense to pull the DC back to Birkdale just to simplify the layout around Southport station.

As for third-rail extension, a tunnel from Cressington (or LSP) to the airport would be a lot cheaper to construct third rail than OHLE. Trains that currently terminate at Liverpool Central could then all run through to a new airport station, so it would also be very handy not to have to put pantos on every Northern Line train.

The obvious place to put switchovers from OHLE to 3rd rail on Merseyrail would be at the closest station to the tunnel sections and convert the remainder to OHL.

That way you keep third rail entirely in the tunnel sections, which is where it makes sense.

 

[Camden]

It's an absurd proposition. Year upon year of disruption to the metropolitan area, for absolutely no gain and plenty of cost.

Where is the matching proposal to turn LU from rail power to overhead?

 

[notlob.divad]

In my job (engineering but not railways) I read alot of similar style documents to that regarding H&S regulations. That document is about the most strongly worded it could be.

Basically, anyone who designs and installs further 'legacy' 3rd rail in this country is going against the regulators code. If someone was to come to grief on a line newly electrified by a legacy system it would be up to them to prove to the courts that anything else was (in the words of the document) Grossly Disproportionate. And no engineer will take on that responsibility lightly if at all. When the regulations and guidance use that level of language the courts just will not accept that things have been done.

Taking on any regulator is like voluntarily sticking your head under the Guillotine. Even if you did manage to produce the necessary paperwork to push the scheme through (which in itself will cost you a fortune), they will be waiting for the first time any incident happens to come down on you.

That is why we end up with the stalemate on expansion of Merseyrail electrified lines. Not because people don't think it is a good idea, nobody will be willing to categorically state that all other options (including leaving everything exactly as it is) are Grossly Disproportionate. Merseyrail specifying that the new fleet must be 3rd rail and OHLE capable, even if the OHLE equipment is not installed from Day 1, is tacit admission of this. Any expansion of Merseyrail will by all practical means be via OHLE whether my belief that the existing 3rd rail starts shrinking as a result, only time will tell. But until the no more 3rd rail is accepted, there will be no expansion whatsoever, however much it makes sense.

That would be a major headache for Merseyrail if they needed different stock to serve Skelmersdale. Their new train order specified fitting for but not with OHLE.

By the time any Skelmersdale spur actually sees a train, they will have electrified the CLC and be looking at other lines as well. It won't be a unique stock to do just that one branch.

 

[Holly]

IMHO, it's grossly disproportionate if building the new track necessitates buying new rolling stock that would not otherwise be needed. Meaning that only third rail extensions that can be served without expanding the existing rolling stock are feasible. Obviously all new rolling stock should be AC/DC.

Overhead DC light rail should be considered for Bidston-Wrexham. Manchester Metrolink compatible.

 

[Gareth]

Or cycles

That was so funny it hertz.

 

[AM9]

It's an absurd proposition. Year upon year of disruption to the metropolitan area, for absolutely no gain and plenty of cost.

Where is the matching proposal to turn LU from rail power to overhead?

What's that got to do with the price of eggs? Why does LU need to have 'matching' plans for OLE?

LU has almost finished replacing all of its SSL trains with more DC only types, which will run for the next 30 years or more. It is very unlikely that any lines that have never been electrified will have 3rd rail installed at any time in the future.*
* Note, the Croxley Link is re-electrifying the old DC line, then linking to the existing Watford Met. line. The only new piece of line is up and over a bridge to link up to the Met..

 

[Camden]

That is why we end up with the stalemate on expansion of Merseyrail electrified lines. Not because people don't think it is a good idea, nobody will be willing to categorically state that all other options (including leaving everything exactly as it is) are Grossly Disproportionate. Merseyrail specifying that the new fleet must be 3rd rail and OHLE capable, even if the OHLE equipment is not installed from Day 1, is tacit admission of this. Any expansion of Merseyrail will by all practical means be via OHLE whether my belief that the existing 3rd rail starts shrinking as a result, only time will tell. But until the no more 3rd rail is accepted, there will be no expansion whatsoever, however much it makes sense.

And if this is the case then that is why it needs to be politicised. It's crucial for needed regional economic growth for the infrastructure to support that, and if a distant Westminster government is putting needless costly barriers in the way then that needs taking apart. On this subject, they will deserve to lose. From what I've seen I can imagine two of the three so far announced possible candidates for the merseyside mayor taking the issue on, one more than the other.

 

[notlob.divad]

It's an absurd proposition. Year upon year of disruption to the metropolitan area, for absolutely no gain and plenty of cost.

Where is the matching proposal to turn LU from rail power to overhead?

If, at the earliest design optioneering stage, a duty holder fully assesses the risks of a proposed electrification scheme then it is possible to exploit opportunities to design those risks out or minimise them, as required by legislation. For example, later DC systems – such as the DLR – have designed their traction arrangements so that the conductor rail is insulated or shrouded. Access to third rail by the public on this system is also more restricted than on the mainline as it is raised or underground and
has no level crossings. Similarly, this has been the case where London Underground has expanded its fourth rail network. Physical limitations and compatibility considerations have constrained adoption of alternative traction current arrangements but this is set against the already greater levels of compliance achieved on that network, such as no live working and greater separation of members of the public from the network.

To reference your own argument for you.

If you are arguing that Merseyrail has or can have the same 'Levels of compliance' achieved by London Underground, there may, just may be a little way you could sneak it through. Bear in mind that one thing LU are looking at doing and in some instances have already done for this and other safety reasons is installing platform doors on the enclosed stations.

However, I ask how you make the level crossing up the coast line compliant? I am not aware of any level crossings on the Underground network, however I know there are at least 3 on the Merseyrail network which can provide easy un-monitored access points. They are on an existing system so are acceptable for now. But at some point will be considered an unnecessary risk.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's an absurd proposition. Year upon year of disruption to the metropolitan area, for absolutely no gain and plenty of cost.

Where is the matching proposal to turn LU from rail power to overhead?

The conversion would take decades to complete, and would not be a priority over other electrification works. The AC electrified network will run to the ends of the Merseyrail network and from that point on, as sections of the third rail become life-expired the overhead lines would creep further and further inward. The long term solution for the tunnelled sections would depend upon whether it would genuinely be impossible to fit overhead conductor bar at 25kV AC. Like Paisley Canal, the lines are only used by EMUs normally, and when engineering trains come it could be possible to turn the overhead power off.