Possible problem with tight, split-ticket, connection at York

[Ian Cunningham]

Advice sought:

Due to not quite paying enough attention when booking trains for my other half I have left her with a 5-minute connection between an incoming XC (WTT arr 1230) and departing LNER (WTT dep 1235) train at York on Thursday.
The intention was to book the tickets on the same XC train from Sheffield to Edinburgh manually splitting the tickets at York but I wrote a time down wrong and have put her on the immediately following LNER service


All being well this is achievable (booked as platform 11 & platform 9) but it wouldn't take much delay on the incoming train to make it a missed connection.

Both tickets are advance singles booked in the same web transaction from TPE -the overall journey is Sheffield-Edinburgh which is much cheaper if split-ticketed at York.

My understanding is that if you miss a connection due to a previous late or cancelled service then you can travel on the next available service (restricted to same-TOC on Advance tickets)

If she does miss the connection will she have any problems doing this with our, self-imposed, tight connection (I can't any mention of an official minimum connection time anywhere on the web).

I think it will be OK but I'd rather she be fore-warned and armed with the right info to reduce her stress (and mime!)

Thanks for your help

 

[Esker-pades]

York has a minimum connection time of 8 minutes according to Northern timetables.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Minimum connection time at York is 8 minutes making your itinerary invalid.

If the connection is missed there is no automatic right to travel on a later service with the advance ticket I’m afraid.

 

[gray1404]

Your wife would only be entitled to take the next service (subject to any TOC restrictions) if the minimum connection time for York, which is 8 minutes, had been adhered to. Also this would be based in the passenger timetable and NOT the working timetable. As things stand, if your wife misses her connection she would have to buy a new ticket for the next leg of the journey and this would need to be done before she joined the next train.

My understanding is that TPE however do allow you to make either refunds or changes to Advance tickets without charge now. Although I think you might have to post the tickets back to them. I wonder if this might be an option then for you to change one of the tickets so the minimum connection time is adhered to. I am not myself too sure about this new policy for bookings made on TPE but I am sure others will be along and can explain in more detail of if this is possible.

Looking at the timetable, the XC service is indeed due into York at 12:30. The LNER is not due to arrive until 12:32 (and it will had stopped at Doncaster so I cannot imagine it being too early if it is). It is due to leave at 12:35. I personally think that provided the XC service does arrive on time and your wife does have the 5 minutes to change then it is achievable.

 

[Esker-pades]

As I see it, you have two options:
1: Keep the current bookings. This risks an expensive additional fare if your first leg is late.
2: Refund one of the portions and re-book on a different train (either the Sheffield to York on an earlier service, or the York to Edinburgh).

I would go with option 2.
Most TOCs allow a 24 hour grace period between booking and alteration. IE: if you have booked your tickets less than 24 hours ago, you can amend them. This includes advance tickets. I have done this a few times when I have accidentally chosen the wrong day, for example.
Even if you've passed that timeframe, have a go at re-booking. I doubt it will be more expensive than turn-up-and-go York to Edinburgh ticket on the day if there's a little bit of lateness.

In theory, as long as your 12:30 arrival isn't too late then the 12:35 will be held to allow it to continue. That way, the pathing isn't too messed up. But, trying to predict the way a signaller will behave from one day to the next is hard. I'm not a signaller and all signallers work differently. One shouldn't rely on these things.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

Thank you all for your replies - very informative.

I'd like to follow up on the minimum connection time as that seems to be the critical bit:

The 8-minute minimum connection time at York is news to me - I can find no trace of this information on any TOC nor National Rail Enquiries website
(NRE had a page about connections but does not mention specific minimum times anywhere nor the existence of them)

I struggle to see how they could enforce such a condition onto a customer when that information is not available to the customer in any form prior to booking

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage only states that you must allow "sufficient" time for connections - a subjective definition with no mention of even the existence of fixed minimum connection times.

In the absence of more detailed information 5 minutes could well be deemed "sufficient" for York by a customer -

(I do note that NCoC does say a booking engine will automatically allow "sufficient" time for connections but, again, no details regarding this)

From NCoC
Part E: Making your Train Journey
20.
Changing trains
If your journey requires a change of trains, you must allow sufficient time to make your
connection when selecting the trains you wish to use. Train times shown at
www.nationalrail.co.uk or on any journey plan provided by a Train Company or
Licensed Retailer will allow sufficient time for making your change of trains. You can
also ask for advice on this when purchasing your Ticket at a station.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Minimum connection times were traditionally featured in the Station Index in the National Rail Timetable, with the default being five minutes if no specific time was shown. Though there is no mention of this anywhere on the National Rail site or in the National Rail Conditions of Travel as far as I can tell.

Unfortunately, Network Rail changed the format of said station index a couple of years ago, so you now have to look at specific timetables to ascertain the connection time for a given station. Doubly unfortunately, they've switched file hosting solutions recently, so it's no longer possible to link to specific tables.

In this case, York can be found under London North East route Table 26 (amongst others), which shows the specified 8 minute minimum connection.

It's also possible to get the minimum connection times from the unofficial site BR Times (http://www.brtimes.com/) by entering the station name and choosing the "Station info" option.

As for booking engines automatically allowing "sufficient" connection time, this would only apply if you requested an itinerary for the through journey from Sheffield to Edinburgh and forced a change at York. If you book split tickets, it is your responsibility to ensure minimum connection times are met where applicable.

 

[Merseysider]

In theory, you can change any Advance ticket for free that was booked with TPE.

However, some forum members have reported difficulty doing this when the travel date is within 5 working days, due to TPE wanting to post the new tickets out.

If you call TPE they will likely be able to agree a refund for the second portion if you go and book an equivalent journey on TPE’s website (in your case, the next train).

 

[robbeech]

The LNER is booked to call at Northallerton so it’s unlikely a signaller would allow it infront of the XC unless it was delayed by more than a couple of minutes. But there are exceptions.
As for the minimum connection time. By all means send your other half on their way with these tickets and allow them to have a debate about it on the platform if there is disruption but unfortunately they’re unlikely to get anywhere with it.
Changing the second advance to be on the same train through from Sheffield is likely the most sensible approach. You could contact XC and ask them for a seat reservation through from Sheffield to Edinburgh and they can sort that for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We might enjoy having debates with the railway on what the rules should be, but I think it's unfair to subject others to them.

Best change one of the tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to follow up on the minimum connection time as that seems to be the critical bit:

The 8-minute minimum connection time at York is news to me - I can find no trace of this information on any TOC nor National Rail Enquiries website
(NRE had a page about connections but does not mention specific minimum times anywhere nor the existence of them)

I struggle to see how they could enforce such a condition onto a customer when that information is not available to the customer in any form prior to booking

I think it should be better documented, but the assumption of the rail industry is that you will be using an accredited journey planner to plan your overall journey.

You can purchase multiple tickets for the journey, but the overall journey should follow an itinerary which can be generated by a journey planner which has taken minimum connection times into consideration.

If you use an accredited ticket splitting website/app, you will get the following benefits:

• minimum interchange times taken into account
• one itinerary clearly showing your overall journey; this can be used as evidence for your contractual requirements to be conveyed on later trains and/or obtain compensation in the event of delays
• one admin fee will be charged if you change the journey time/date, regardless of how many tickets are in the booking
• a split ticket retailer may support you in the event of a dispute you have with a train company, if any company attempts to deny you your rights in respect of split ticketing

Of course you can do your own splits, and you do not lose contractual rights when doing so, but it is easier to make a mistake and discover the tickets might not combine to form a valid itinerary and it may be difficult to demonstrate your contractual rights in the event of problems.

 

[Smethwickian]

The 8-minute minimum connection time at York is news to me - I can find no trace of this information on any TOC nor National Rail Enquiries website.

As well as the sources mentioned above, connection times are given alongside station times in printed and online PDF timetables produced by most individual TOCs including CrossCountry, and are explained in the notes to those timetables. Oddly, those currently online for LNER do not appear to do so.

 

[gray1404]

In theory, you can change any Advance ticket for free that was booked with TPE.

However, some forum members have reported difficulty doing this when the travel date is within 5 working days, due to TPE wanting to post the new tickets out.

If you call TPE they will likely be able to agree a refund for the second portion if you go and book an equivalent journey on TPE’s website (in your case, the next train).

I agree with this. I have also experienced a TOC giving a refund on an uncollected advance ticket if you go and book an equivalent journey with them on the phone there and then in the same call. It was not TPE I did this with but there is no hard in asking. They worst they could say is no. So I think this is worth a try if you phone today. Although for the XC train £41.80 is currently the price showing on the TPE site for an advance York to Edinburgh on the 12.31 so there may have been a price jump compared to what you paid for the LNER train.

 

[robbeech]

The cheapest way I’ve managed is tpe York to Newcastle then LNER to Edinburgh with a same train split at Berwick.
It’s a longer journey with an extra change though

 

[furlong]

The industry has been removing information about those minimum connection times from its publications and I doubt that they are relevant to this discussion. The condition places the responsibility for judging how much time is sufficient with the passenger (not some formula set by the railway) - and when the passenger makes their judgement, which must be a reasonable one of course, it would surely be reasonable to trust the information the railway provides about the arrival time will be correct. (It doesn't say "trains may normally be expected to arrive at York up to five minutes later than the published time.") What is sufficient for one passenger (familiar with the station) might be insufficient for another (unfamiliar, slow walking, lots of luggage). If the industry had wanted to enforce minimum connection times it would have written the condition differently.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The industry has been removing information about those minimum connection times from its publications and I doubt that they are relevant to this discussion. The condition places the responsibility for judging how much time is sufficient with the passenger (not some formula set by the railway) - and when the passenger makes their judgement, which must be a reasonable one of course, it would surely be reasonable to trust the information the railway provides about the arrival time will be correct. (It doesn't say "trains may normally be expected to arrive at York up to five minutes later than the published time.") What is sufficient for one passenger (familiar with the station) might be insufficient for another (unfamiliar, slow walking, lots of luggage). If the industry had wanted to enforce minimum connection times it would have written the condition differently.

Interestingly, the old National Rail Conditions of Carriage - as introduced by the BR Board right at the start of privatisation - did actually refer to the interchange times, though only in relation to compensation for delays.

 

[sheff1]

In theory, you can change any Advance ticket for free that was booked with TPE.

However, some forum members have reported difficulty doing this when the travel date is within 5 working days, due to TPE wanting to post the new tickets out.

If you call TPE they will likely be able to agree a refund for the second portion if you go and book an equivalent journey on TPE’s website (in your case, the next train).

For OP's info, the relevant bit on the TPE site is here
https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/change-my-ticket.

It makes no reference to having to post new tickets out but, as stated, you may encounter difficulties. Probably best to follow the guidance in that link first and then phone TPE up if you are unsuccessful.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

For OP's info, the relevant bit on the TPE site is here
https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/change-my-ticket.

It makes no reference to having to post new tickets out but, as stated, you may encounter difficulties. Probably best to follow the guidance in that link first and then phone TPE up if you are unsuccessful.

There is no reference given to any such requirement or limitation and thus, in my view, if someone decided to exercise their right to a fee-free change even on the day of travel, then TPE would be liable for any costs incurred through their inability and/or refusal to accommodate alternative ticketing arrangements.

I found this out the sharp way by wanting to change my TPE-bought Advance on the day of travel. They refused to do anything about it, simply repeating that it is not possible within the 5 days before the date of travel, and that that is their policy. Quite how they thought that was enforceable was beyond me.

Luckily, in the end I managed to change my plans to accommodate the originally booked train, but it was a fair inconvenience and I now know not to rely on it (considering CrossCountry makes it a lot easier by allowing TOD collection).

 

[Ian Cunningham]

Thank you all for your replies - it's greatly appreciated.
I've been lurking on the forum for a while now but this was my first post and question.

While I would have been happy to argue the case at the station I didn't want her to be in that position on her own.
The replies gave me exactly the information I needed to make a decision which meant I purchased a extra ticket so she can just remain on the first XC train (as was originally my intention) thus all is well (apart from my bank balance)

I did try and change it on the TPE website but got stuck with no delivery options available, so still some work to do there for TPE. I hope they can resolve that as it's a potentially very useful feature.

I think that the industry does need to make the minimum connection times easier to find and clarify what constitutes a valid itinery though

Thanks again

Ian

 

[robbeech]

Is it still worth a call / email / tweet to them to see if they can help?

I think that the industry does need to make the minimum connection times easier to find and clarify what constitutes a valid itinery though

I would certainly agree there.