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Possible Movement in RMT Dispute.

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Solent&Wessex

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The general mood appears to be to vote Yes.

For my grade at my TOC it works out as 5.8% because of the underpin.
 
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12LDA28C

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There is nothing to suggest that the TOC's will not impose changes to T&Cs if the negotations fail.

I'm still not seeing a material difference

I disagree. If each individual TOC is now in charge of any changes to Ts & Cs then I assume that would be done through the normal process of negotiation with the unions, without direct interfering/meddling by the Government.

This is how pay rises / changes to Ts & Cs have always been negotiated and seems not to represent any change to long-established procedures. Rather different to changes being summarily imposed across the industry by the DfT/RDG.
 

SCDR_WMR

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I disagree. If each individual TOC is now in charge of any changes to Ts & Cs then I assume that would be done through the normal process of negotiation with the unions, without direct interfering/meddling by the Government.

This is how pay rises / changes to Ts & Cs have always been negotiated and seems not to represent any change to long-established procedures. Rather different to changes being summarily imposed across the industry by the DfT/RDG.
Exactly, and some companies will know that they won't be able to get through all of those changes to T&Cs for a small pay increase. So it's back to how it had been for along while.

Highly doubt this will be the end of industrial action as a whole, but for some TOCs it may well be given they already have most of the list the DfT wish to impose. So no more National Strikes is likely
 

Ashley Hill

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I expect most TOCs will push for Sunday in the working week (those that don’t already have it). That will probably mean taking on extra staff though.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I expect most TOCs will push for Sunday in the working week (those that don’t already have it). That will probably mean taking on extra staff though.

No, they will push for Committed Sundays (i.e. Compulsory Overtime) as that is far far cheaper overall.
 

bunnahabhain

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No, they will push for Committed Sundays (i.e. Compulsory Overtime) as that is far far cheaper overall.
We had Sundays Inclusive for new starters brought in a year or two ago. We've now had some Sundays removed from their roster and weekday turns added in because of a shortfall in weekday spare coverage.
 

Adrian1980uk

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Through the face saving excercise I think the DFT have realised negotiation is better done at a TOC level, the unions would always like it at a national level but one of the advantages of doing it at a TOC level is that you don't need to pay London wages at Northern for example and of course you then don't get national strikes. That should be the direction of travel once again
 

thedbdiboy

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Through the face saving excercise I think the DFT have realised negotiation is better done at a TOC level, the unions would always like it at a national level but one of the advantages of doing it at a TOC level is that you don't need to pay London wages at Northern for example and of course you then don't get national strikes. That should be the direction of travel once again
So after more than 18 months we have finally got to where everyone should have been before the Government decided to wave a big stick and Take Charge.
 

12LDA28C

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Well there had better be an exemption as I haven’t worked Sundays for over 30yrs.

Not directed at you specifically but personally I always struggle to understand the mentality of anyone who joins an industry that operates 24/7 but doesn't want to work shifts/nights/weekends. It's the job. Suck it up.
 

Ashley Hill

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Not directed at you specifically but personally I always struggle to understand the mentality of anyone who joins an industry that operates 24/7 but doesn't want to work shifts/nights/weekends. It's the job. Suck it up.
When I joined the railway I remember staff fighting (not literally) for Sunday work to boost their meagre wages. The Sunday sheets were studiously studied by many to see if claim’s could be made if not booked out. Now pay has risen significantly over the years the above situation has disappeared. The railway has had the opportunity to make Sundays compulsory for new entrants for years and whilst some TOCs appear to have done this,mine hasn’t.
 

irish_rail

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Not directed at you specifically but personally I always struggle to understand the mentality of anyone who joins an industry that operates 24/7 but doesn't want to work shifts/nights/weekends. It's the job. Suck it up.
When I signed my contract, (yes legally binding contract) it clearly stated Sunday was voluntary and outside of normal working hours. So I have and will continue to have every right to refuse to work it. The dft need to put Sundays within the working week, then most of us will happily work them. Simples. Dft can't have it's cake and eat it im afraid.
 

Carlisle

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the unions would always like it at a national level but one of the advantages of doing it at a TOC level is that you don't need to pay London wages at Northern for example
Some may remember when full or half London Allowances addressed most of those problems without requiring dozens of different companies & employment contracts .
 
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emsworth

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When I joined the railway I remember staff fighting (not literally) for Sunday work to boost their meagre wages. The Sunday sheets were studiously studied by many to see if claim’s could be made if not booked out. Now pay has risen significantly over the years the above situation has disappeared. The railway has had the opportunity to make Sundays compulsory for new entrants for years and whilst some TOCs appear to have done this,mine hasn’t.
When I signed my contract, (yes legally binding contract) it clearly stated Sunday was voluntary and outside of normal working hours. So I have and will continue to have every right to refuse to work it. The dft need to put Sundays within the working week, then most of us will happily work them. Simples. Dft can't have it's cake and eat it im afraid.
While it's understandable that shift work is part of the job in a 24/7 industry, it's important to recognise individual contractual agreements and historical precedents. As Ashley Hill mentioned, the nature of Sunday work has significantly changed over the years, and as irish_rail pointed out, their contract clearly states that Sunday work is voluntary. These personal and contractual circumstances are crucial and should be respected in my opinion.
 

father_jack

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Not directed at you specifically but personally I always struggle to understand the mentality of anyone who joins an industry that operates 24/7 but doesn't want to work shifts/nights/weekends. It's the job. Suck it up.
I've not done a Sunday for 5 years but if the company make the job 5 days out of 7 with 2 rest days together in the week I'll happily come in on Sunday and "suck it up" as you sarcastically say.
 

Snow1964

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No, they will push for Committed Sundays (i.e. Compulsory Overtime) as that is far far cheaper overall.
It might be cheaper short term than recruiting and training someone, but comes with dis benefits of having no control over overtime.

Virtually no other industry understands the concept of compulsory overtime, it is normally voluntary, and only available at discretion of employer if there is surge period or serious staff shortage. Some employers who have strong work-life balance policy discourage extra hours as employee can become tired and ill

You have to remember that anyone with children tends not to want to increase earnings between £50k and £60k (after adjusting for pension contributions) because of the bonkers marginal tax rate. (generally paying 40 PAYE + 2% NI + 11% child benefit clawback + 8% for each extra child). No one sensible does 5k overtime to increase take home pay by £2k
 

Carlisle

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It might be cheaper short term than recruiting and training someone, but comes with dis benefits of having no control over overtime.
True but historical realities of weekend engineering work meaning several routes totally or partially closed on certain Sundays may be a contributing factor as to why it’s not been the easiest problem to solve .
 
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Timetraveller

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I disagree. If each individual TOC is now in charge of any changes to Ts & Cs then I assume that would be done through the normal process of negotiation with the unions, without direct interfering/meddling by the Government.

This is how pay rises / changes to Ts & Cs have always been negotiated and seems not to represent any change to long-established procedures. Rather different to changes being summarily imposed across the industry by the DfT/RDG.
I am sure you will find that all Rail delivery group TOC's in this current dispute will push for workforce reforms. Whether by agreement or forced through. We are back to March 2023 currently. If they don't get this through then the no compulsory redundancy till end 2024 will be dropped. So terms and conditions are still part of this as 'multi skilled' station grade staff with flat rate, no enhancements, commited overtime on sundays and on board train crew with short notice changes to rest days as I read it. Happy to be corrected.
 

Shunter2022

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A quick question regarding the back pay. My pay anniversary is October 2022 so should be expecting 13 months roughly if its accepted! I'm due to start as a trainee driver in December with the same TOC does anyone know if i still receive the backpay for my previous role?
 

EZJ

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Never heard of people who've left getting back pay before. I stand to be corrected bug I'd say you were out of luck.
 

falcon

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Never heard of people who've left getting back pay before. I stand to be corrected bug I'd say you were out of luck.
They are legally entiteld to the backpay. But they have to claim it.

It's all here. Rumford v York city Council.

The simple explaination.

Employee has contract with employer. Employer has to pay for all work at the rate agreed ,even if the employee has left the company and the pay award is then agreed.

The defualt postion is payment must be made in the absence of any agreed (with the employee) to forgo the pay award if the leave the company before the pay award agreement is reached. See next paragragph.

Even then it is disputable becuase the statutory provisions under the wages act protect against dodgey contracts, in the case of Rumford v York City Council the Council failed in their attempt to prevent the pay award paying paid, even when they had a clause stating no payments would be made to employees leaving.

The judges findings are clear, the employer has to pay up.

Case.
ttps://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6465d8f3e14070000cb6e167
/Rumford_v_City_of_York_Council_1800201.23__1800203.2023___1800204.2023_judgment.....pdf

Read Par. 61 onwards.

Conclusion at the end No. 84.
For these reasons, therefore, the claimants’ claims that they were subject to
unauthorised deductions from wages are successful and the respondent
must pay Mr Rumford the gross sum of £577.50 and Mrs Rumford the gross
sum of £641.66.

Judge Miller.
 
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GalaxyDog

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How would one go about claiming it then please? Contact your former TOC, provide dates grade and depot of employment plus employee number or such?

Best, from Betelgeuse Five
 

dk1

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When I joined the railway I remember staff fighting (not literally) for Sunday work to boost their meagre wages. The Sunday sheets were studiously studied by many to see if claim’s could be made if not booked out. Now pay has risen significantly over the years the above situation has disappeared. The railway has had the opportunity to make Sundays compulsory for new entrants for years and whilst some TOCs appear to have done this,mine hasn’t.

I was a roster clerk in the early 90s and that’s what I find noticeable these days. Then there was a list as long as your arm of volunteer guards for Sunday turns. These days that list is for those not available with declined leave a common sight as no cover.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Never heard of people who've left getting back pay before. I stand to be corrected bug I'd say you were out of luck.

Yes we have had several drivers retire in the last few months and all will get their back pay as and when the dispute is settled regardless of how long ago that takes.
 

172007

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Not directed at you specifically but personally I always struggle to understand the mentality of anyone who joins an industry that operates 24/7 but doesn't want to work shifts/nights/weekends. It's the job. Suck it up.
If you read Genesis you will understand.
 

Facing Back

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They are legally entiteld to the backpay. But they have to claim it.
I would question "legally entitled" - do you have documentation which supports this? It may be custom and practice in the industry or an agreement with the union but I don't recall it being part of employment law.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I am sure you will find that all Rail delivery group TOC's in this current dispute will push for workforce reforms. Whether by agreement or forced through. We are back to March 2023 currently. If they don't get this through then the no compulsory redundancy till end 2024 will be dropped. So terms and conditions are still part of this as 'multi skilled' station grade staff with flat rate, no enhancements, commited overtime on sundays and on board train crew with short notice changes to rest days as I read it. Happy to be corrected.
That's pretty much how I'm reading it but I'm clearly in the minority so I'm going to withhold my scepticism and celebrate a potential forwards move. I'm not in the industry, my only dog in this race is wanting the trains to be reliable with a well-stocked bar on late evening intercity journeys so I'm happy to be wrong or corrected too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If you read Genesis you will understand.
Genesis before or after Peter Gabriel left?
 
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chuff chuff

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When I joined the railway I remember staff fighting (not literally) for Sunday work to boost their meagre wages. The Sunday sheets were studiously studied by many to see if claim’s could be made if not booked out. Now pay has risen significantly over the years the above situation has disappeared. The railway has had the opportunity to make Sundays compulsory for new entrants for years and whilst some TOCs appear to have done this,mine hasn’t.
Agree with this the pay in the good old days wasn't that great so usually plenty of volunteers to take your Sunday now many new entrants will be earning way more than they did before joining the railway.We (scotrail) have the options permanently available,booked Sundays only and permanently not available (only have to work if no volunteers),sounds okay but the permanently not available have to get covered first before the guys who do work them but might need the odd one off.This is slowly peeing off the guys who work the not availables Sunday knowing that it wouldn't be reciprocated on the odd occasion you might need a booked Sunday off.
 
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Facing Back

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Virtually no other industry understands the concept of compulsory overtime, it is normally voluntary, and only available at discretion of employer if there is surge period or serious staff shortage. Some employers who have strong work-life balance policy discourage extra hours as employee can become tired and ill
I'd have to disagree a little with this. I'm a management consultant and work/have worked across a number of industries and mandatory overtime is not that uncommon. I would say that most companies do their best to find volunteers and alterative staffing models to minimise or effectively eliminate this but it is still there.

Busy periods such as Christmas, school holidays etc in certain industries are a prime example. Retail businesses which open only a Saturday morning and lorry drivers were recent examples. Generally this is well known and very clear in the contracts - and the industrial relations tend to be less rocky than some on the railways - but to say the railway is unique is incorrect - regardless of the rights and wrongs of mandatory overtime.
 

robert thomas

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Agree with this the pay in the good old days wasn't that great so usually plenty of volunteers to take your Sunday now many new entrants will be earning way more than they did before joining the railway.We (scotrail) have the options permanently available,booked Sundays only and permanently not available (only have to work if no volunteers),sounds okay but the permanently not available have to get covered first before the guys who do work them but might need the odd one off.This is slowly peeing off the guys who work the not availables Sunday knowing that it wouldn't be reciprocated on the odd occasion you might need a booked Sunday off.
Historically large parts of the country had no services on a Sunday
 

12LDA28C

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When I signed my contract, (yes legally binding contract) it clearly stated Sunday was voluntary and outside of normal working hours. So I have and will continue to have every right to refuse to work it. The dft need to put Sundays within the working week, then most of us will happily work them. Simples. Dft can't have it's cake and eat it im afraid.

As is your right, of course. But I assume when you first joined the railway you accepted that weekend working was a given, including Sundays. Personally I find that working Sundays is easier and less stressful as there's less management around, less passengers, more engineering work meaning less intense drivers' diagrams and so on. Not to mention the overtime available for working Sunday and I'd much rather have a day off in the week when much of the rest of the world is at work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If you read Genesis you will understand.

Great band, I'll grant you - even after Peter Gabriel left, up to a point. Any religious connotation falls on deaf ears here I'm afraid.
 
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