Possible improvements to services serving Ellesmere Port

[Ianno87]

Ellesmere Port to Helsby creates, and or improves access to
Ellesmere Port to Warrington (WCML North & South)
Ellesmere Port to Runcorn & Liverpool
Ellesmere Port to Chester !

So the key questions are:

-Of the market for these journeys, how much already goes by rail, but by railheading to Chester/Helsby etc? So is not "new" traffic.
-For the people that drive throughout today, would this service actually attract then given need to park / get to Ellesmere Port and still probably change trains somewhere versus a generally good Motorway journey?

 

[8H]

Fair questions! I don’t know the answers, but of course this is all speculative! Railheading may go the way of the motor car itself, into history, we don’t know. If it does decline railways will have to innovate. The motorway isn’t that great either, has regular terrible peak jams.

 

[Gareth]

Pretty sure the motor car is still with us.

 

[8H]

It’s not is it ?? I hadn’t noticed. You know there is a genuine problem for rigidly orthodox thinkers in that their unshakeable belief in the eternal primacy of the motor car at its present level of usage is immovable. Even it goes down just a few percentage points demand for modal shift will need resources shifted toward alternatives.

 

[Ianno87]

It’s not is it ?? I hadn’t noticed. You know there is a genuine problem for rigidly orthodox thinkers in that their unshakeable belief in the eternal primacy of the motor car at its present level of usage is immovable. Even it goes down just a few percentage points demand for modal shift will need resources shifted toward alternatives.

Problem is the marginal / perceived cost of motoring is too cheap, and unarguably the car is more often than not the most convenient forn of transport. You can make rail transport as good as you like and it still won't attract demand.

The only way to shift that is through road pricing as a 'stick' - but who is going to take the political hit for that one...?

 

[tavistock]

Indeed. I guess Ellesmere Port and surroundings is a perfectly decent place to live (though I haven't had a wander around the residential bits) but its town centre is only really an attraction (if you'd call it that) for locals. I'm sure some will dislike this, but I'll happily admit exactly the same thing is true of Bletchley - literally the only reasons for anyone who doesn't live there to go there by train are football and Bletchley Park - the centre is a dump. For Ellesmere Port that's Cheshire Oaks, but it's a bit far from the station.

yes, the town centre has been in decline for years, not necessarily the fault of Cheshire Oaks, which attracts people from all over the North, more of a steady decline mirrored by many high streets throughout the country. Very sad.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

It does seem to me that Ellesmere Port gets a raw deal, its quite a big town and appears to get overlooked. People there deserve a better service as do those at Ince and Elton, further down the branch. We should trying to move people away from car reliance.

Exactly

 

[Gareth]

It’s not is it ?? I hadn’t noticed. You know there is a genuine problem for rigidly orthodox thinkers in that their unshakeable belief in the eternal primacy of the motor car at its present level of usage is immovable. Even it goes down just a few percentage points demand for modal shift will need resources shifted toward alternatives.

I assure you it very much is still with us. Nothing last forever, not even homo sapiens, but motor cars are nowhere near "history". It's more likely than not they'll outlive you and me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assure you it very much is still with us. Nothing last forever, not even homo sapiens, but motor cars are nowhere near "history". It's more likely than not they'll outlive you and me.

I'd expect so too, though I think the internal combustion engine won't, other than perhaps some sort of special licensing for classic vehicles which have limited mileage.

 

[Gareth]

Yes, electric will no doubt takeover, although even that's at least a couple of decades away, I'd estimate, before it establishes full primacy. If 8H meant the internal combustion engine, then I apologise to him; although even then, he's being somewhat premature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, electric will no doubt takeover, although even that's at least a couple of decades away, I'd estimate, before it establishes full primacy. If 8H meant the internal combustion engine, then I apologise to him; although even then, he's being somewhat premature.

Yes, that's fair. The enclosed, private, 4-7 seated powered road vehicle is not going to go away, regardless of what you might call it.

 

[Llandudno]

Stick that in the railway ticketing and timetable system and you're sorted.

Or perhaps extend the Ellesmere Port PlusBus zone to Helsby?

Stagecoach route 2 operates hourly between Chester, Bache, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire Oaks, Elton, Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn.
Of course, it goes without saying that it doesn’t run after 6pm, so pretty useless if commuting home from Manchester and places further afield.

 

[frodshamfella]

Are any services operating on Helsby- E Port branch at present ?

 

[markymark2000]

Or perhaps extend the Ellesmere Port PlusBus zone to Helsby?

Stagecoach route 2 operates hourly between Chester, Bache, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire Oaks, Elton, Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn.
Of course, it goes without saying that it doesn’t run after 6pm, so pretty useless if commuting home from Manchester and places further afield.

Both morning and evening commutes could be done by connecting from the first or last buses.
06:30 bus off Eport, get off at Frodsham, wait 20 mins and then 07:26 to Manchester, arrive 08:12
In the evening get the 17:15 from Piccadilly, wait 15 mins at Frodsham, catch the last 2 then into Eport.

Frodsham is the better interchange since the walk is slightly less, it's more accessible and the bus stops have shelters.

 

[Llandudno]

Both morning and evening commutes could be done by connecting from the first or last buses.
06:30 bus off Eport, get off at Frodsham, wait 20 mins and then 07:26 to Manchester, arrive 08:12
In the evening get the 17:15 from Piccadilly, wait 15 mins at Frodsham, catch the last 2 then into Eport.

Frodsham is the better interchange since the walk is slightly less, it's more accessible and the bus stops have shelters.

If you are travelling from Ellesmere Port, Overpool or Little Sutton then it is just as quick to travel by train even if it means changing at Hooton and Chester, plus I would rather wait inside a rail station for connecting services than at a bus stop on the high street.

If I was late returning from Manchester, or the train was delayed you wouldn’t be fretting over catching the last bus home either.

It would appear that the peak period return fare from Ellesmere Port to Manchester is only about £1 more than it is from Frodsham, I would hazard a guess that Stagecoach would probably charge about £7 return from Ellesmere Port to Frodsham on the bus.

 

[tavistock]

And that then gives 30 minutes dead time doing sweet FA. If you were going to do it, you would run every 30 minutes and have empty trains or you would run WBQ to Ellesmere Port so then the train isn't empty all the time as people from Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn all travel to Warrington.


A slight flaw in your calculations which should be looked into. Ellesmere Port as a town has 4 stations. Itself, Overpool, Little Sutton and Capenhurst. These all need to be added together to make up the towns rail usage. This would make it a fair comparison.

We could go into detail about why some of these areas have higher rail usage but in short A good few of them have universities, Some are also commuter towns for big cities and Torquay is a very touristy place. You also have, as Ianno87 says, one or two big interchanges there which are useful.


It's probably worth saying that the 3 lowest usage Merseyrail stations are in the Ellesmere Port area. Little Sutton (116k), Overpool (157k) and Capenhurst (180k). Ellesmere Port itself doesn't fair much better being the 10th least used Merseyrail station. These all have regular half hourly services to Liverpool from early until late, 7 days per week. This is much better than many stations which have more passengers and less services.



The only possible way of Eport getting an enhanced service would be a Merseyrail extension as any services towards Warrington risks causing delays between Frodsham Jct and Helsby (There are already issues sometimes with the 3tph causing congestion without adding another train into the mix). Any service towards Manchester is a non starter I think. Any paths into Manchester need to be used for some of the overcrowded local services or need to run to Chester where the proven demand is for the line.

The Eport line east to Helsby and beyond hasn't got the demand and hence has kept being cut back.


Why do people think money grows on trees. If you are going to subsidise it from your own pocket, go for it but why should everyone else have the financial burden of propping up a line which has consistently had low passenger numbers?

Ellesmere Port actually has seven stations.. you need to add Hooton, Ince, and Stanlow to your list!

 

[markymark2000]

Ellesmere Port actually has seven stations.. you need to add Hooton, Ince, and Stanlow to your list!

Hooton wasn't added simply because I know a lot of people travel there from other areas to use the Park and Ride so it doesn't reflect the actual usage from the town of Ellesmere Port.
Ince & Elton is not really Ellesmere Port and if you asked people who lived there, they may not be best pleased with you referring to them as Ellesmere Port. Stanlow and Thornton is a worker station and not really a station which anyone can use (It's been noted on this forum somewhere and also online in general about security asking questions and stating you can not step off the station or you are trespassing) this doesn't reflect the actual usage in the town.

 

[Polarbear]

I thought Euston-Holyhead was usually Mark 2s before it became HST in about 1991. It was hauled Mark 3s in the summer 2004 timetable after the end of HSTs and before it became Pendolino+57, though.

Around that time you also used to get Euston-Birminghams and Wolverhamptons diverted via the Birmingham-Nuneaton line formed of Mark 3s.

It would appear that the peak period return fare from Ellesmere Port to Manchester is only about £1 more than it is from Frodsham, I would hazard a guess that Stagecoach would probably charge about £7 return from Ellesmere Port to Frodsham on the bus.

A Stagecoach day ticket is £4.40 which covers that route.

 

[Gareth]

Elton & Ince are parts of Chester not Ellesmere Port, plus stanlow is only for very limited use for workers on oil sites road.

Not really. They're their own places.

 

[tavistock]

Elton & Ince are parts of Chester not Ellesmere Port, plus stanlow is only for very limited use for workers on oil sites road.

Ince is, and always has been part of Ellesmere Port. Elton was part of the old Chester Rural District.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==

Well there postcodes come under Chester & are now part of a combined CWAC council District, previous to that they were not part of Ellesmere Port borough council. My point being they are not part of Ellesmere Port as the quoted comment regarding stations in the town of Ellesmere Port.

Ince was part of the old Ellesmere Port Municipal Borough. Elton was not but as the station is nearer to Elton than Ince,then you are right and the station should not be included in those of Ellesmere Port

 

[Gareth]

Ince was part of Ellesmere Port from 1950 until it regained its own parish in 1985.

Neither has ever been part of Chester. Postcodes are a Royal Mail administrative tool and don't dictate township boundaries; nor, for that matter, do awful Frankencouncils like Cheshire West & Chester.

 

[Starmill]

Dislike the name as one might, Cheshire West & Chester Council are very interested in improving the service on this route in particular, and more proactive than many other 'shire' authorities when it comes to long term rail service provision.

 

[Gareth]

It's not merely a Frankencouncil because of its name. In fact, many similar authorities are more misleading with their more ordinary names. It's why people think Leeds is a city of ~800'000 people and thus notably larger than Liverpool or Manchester.