Possible ideas for Cross Country using short HST's

[VT 390]

With overcrowding a major issue on Cross Country and lots of spare HST power cars and carriages from Great Western Railway available could XC introduce short 2+4 HST's on some of there services at least until they get new stock.
As a lot of focus is on the longer XC journeys I was thinking more of the class 170 operated services and my idea would be to introduce them on the Cardiff to Nottingham route which would not only give more capacity on this route but would free up 170's to strengthen other services such as those on the Leicester route.
Does anyone have any other suggestions of how XC could use HST's to introduce an increase in capacity until new stock is ordered (other than more HST's on the north-east to south-west route).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Better to do some timetable tweaks and use full-size ones.

 

[Clip]

Why on earth would they want 4 coach trains? They already get pilloried for having 5 coach trains so why would this ever be a thought?

 

[Tio Terry]

You'd need to do something about toilet catch tanks first!

HST's were designed to run for relatively long distances at constant speed, they are not suited to continual speed changes and frequent stops, not sure they would be well suited to Cross Country services.

 

[yorkie]

Why on earth would they want 4 coach trains? They already get pilloried for having 5 coach trains so why would this ever be a thought?

You're doing well if you get 5 coaches from Cardiff to Nottingham! Maybe some are 5 cars, but none I've ever seen.

But clearly the idea to have HSTs on Cardiff-Nottingham is a complete non-starter.

More HSTs on the longer distance services is more likely.

 

[Clip]

You're doing well if you get 5 coaches from Cardiff to Nottingham! Maybe some are 5 cars, but none I've ever seen.

Apologies for not noting the detail in my post but i think the gist of it was there in reference to a voyager which is all people moan about when talking about XC - I shall make things clearer in future.

 

[geoffk]

Better to have HSTs on long-distance trains and release Voyagers for Cardiff - Nottingham, perhaps extend to Lincoln.

 

[38Cto15E]

If the idea of using redundant, but improved to current legislation short HST sets on the Birmingham -Stansted's is a definite no no, can forum members suggest what is a practical/realistic way to advance capacity on this route?

 

[yorkie]

If the idea of using redundant, but improved to current legislation short HST sets on the Birmingham -Stansted's is a definite no no, can forum members suggest what is a practical/realistic way to advance capacity on this route?

More HSTs on Scotland-South West England services, releasing Voyagers for other routes, and cascade down from there.

It doesn't make sense to put HSTs on Birmingham to Stansted services.

 

[hexagon789]

More HSTs on Scotland-South West England services, releasing Voyagers for other routes, and cascade down from there.

It doesn't make sense to put HSTs on Birmingham to Stansted services.

Definitely, there are really too few and far between at present. 2+7 on more Scotland-SW England XC services would make a big difference, I'm sure a good number of passengers would appreciate it.

 

[tramfan208]

Just out of interest, does anyone know how many diagrams are needed to cover the NE - SW axis? (i.e. Just the ones via Leeds not Doncaster?)

 

[Aictos]

Just out of interest, does anyone know how many diagrams are needed to cover the NE - SW axis? (i.e. Just the ones via Leeds not Doncaster?)

Even better how many diagrams are there covering both routes via Leeds and via Doncaster?

 

[option]

If the idea of using redundant, but improved to current legislation short HST sets on the Birmingham -Stansted's is a definite no no, can forum members suggest what is a practical/realistic way to advance capacity on this route?

Scrap the route...

Why does the only service that connects Birmingham to the east have to serve Stansted?
Why does it have to be such a weird stopping pattern? From Water Orton to Ely it's an all-stations stopper, then it jumps to Cambridge, randomly Audley End & ends up at Stansted.

You can't do Kings Lynn to Stansted without a change.

 

[Clip]

Why does the only service that connects Birmingham to the east have to serve Stansted?

The airport connection would be a good reason.

 

[John Griffiths]

XC do five coach trains? The last few times I've travelled to/from EDinburgh/Glasgow from Newcastle the chisseling ****ers have fobbed us off with three.

 

[VT 390]

XC do five coach trains? The last few times I've travelled to/from EDinburgh/Glasgow from Newcastle the chisseling ****ers have fobbed us off with three.

A three coach XC train from Scotland? What was this as thought that the minimum number of coaches on the XC Scotland services was 4.

 

[omnicity4659]

A three coach XC train from Scotland? What was this as thought that the minimum number of coaches on the XC Scotland services was 4.

A carriage locked out of use, I presume.

 

[route101]

More HSTs on Scotland-South West England services, releasing Voyagers for other routes, and cascade down from there.

It doesn't make sense to put HSTs on Birmingham to Stansted services.

For sure , had the pleasure of a full and standing 4 car xc from Motherwell to Edinburgh today

 

[route101]

A three coach XC train from Scotland? What was this as thought that the minimum number of coaches on the XC Scotland services was 4.

3 or 4 standard coaches.

 

[Esker-pades]

Scrap the route...

Why does the only service that connects Birmingham to the east have to serve Stansted?
Why does it have to be such a weird stopping pattern? From Water Orton to Ely it's an all-stations stopper, then it jumps to Cambridge, randomly Audley End & ends up at Stansted.

You can't do Kings Lynn to Stansted without a change.

Most services run Coleshill, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End, Stansted. So, it doesn't have "such a weird stoping pattern" for a start.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

You'd need to do something about toilet catch tanks first!

HST's were designed to run for relatively long distances at constant speed, they are not suited to continual speed changes and frequent stops, not sure they would be well suited to Cross Country services.

If I might add, sorry, I think 4 or 5-car HST's on Cardiff to Nottingham routes won't be a bad idea - let's not forget that 8-coach HST's around 40 years had frequent gaps between station stops to and from London and Penzance on the corridor to and from Penzance and Plymouth.

That's one reason why the GWR Castle HST's are all 4 coaches - allows for good acceleration. 8 coaches and you'd be struggling to keep to 75mph timings.

If there's something I've misunderstood then apologies but I think short HST's would be ok on Cardiff to Nottingham services - they would be handy on the busy leg to and from Birmingham and Derby.

 

[duffield]

If I might add, sorry, I think 4 or 5-car HST's on Cardiff to Nottingham routes won't be a bad idea - let's not forget that 8-coach HST's around 40 years had frequent gaps between station stops to and from London and Penzance on the corridor to and from Penzance and Plymouth.

That's one reason why the GWR Castle HST's are all 4 coaches - allows for good acceleration. 8 coaches and you'd be struggling to keep to 75mph timings.

If there's something I've misunderstood then apologies but I think short HST's would be ok on Cardiff to Nottingham services - they would be handy on the busy leg to and from Birmingham and Derby.

Capacity wise they would definitely need to be 5 coaches, with one 1st class (1st is part of the specification for this route). Judging by most posters on this board the acceleration/timings should be OK with 5 coaches.

 

[pt_mad]

With overcrowding a major issue on Cross Country and lots of spare HST power cars and carriages from Great Western Railway available could XC introduce short 2+4 HST's on some of there services at least until they get new stock.
As a lot of focus is on the longer XC journeys I was thinking more of the class 170 operated services and my idea would be to introduce them on the Cardiff to Nottingham route which would not only give more capacity on this route but would free up 170's to strengthen other services such as those on the Leicester route.
Does anyone have any other suggestions of how XC could use HST's to introduce an increase in capacity until new stock is ordered (other than more HST's on the north-east to south-west route).

Could they use MK4 coaches and HST power cars in short sets on Turbo routes?

 

[cactustwirly]

Could they use MK4 coaches and HST power cars in short sets on Turbo routes?

No, because MK4s are incompatible with HSTs

 

[pt_mad]

No, because MK4s are incompatible with HSTs

MK4s and 67s or 68s maybe al la the Fife Circle then, but with MK4s for PRM compliance?

 

[cactustwirly]

MK4s and 67s or 68s maybe al la the Fife Circle then, but with MK4s for PRM compliance?

But can a 67 meet 170 timings?

 

[hexagon789]

But can a 67 meet 170 timings?

Depending on the load, I'd say yes. 170s are that sluggish.

68s would be better though.

 

[tbtc]

There seems to be a trend for suggesting over-specced trains for the ex- Central Citylink services that now live in the XC franchise.

There was talk of sending some of the TPE 185s to Ireland because we are going to have so many 100mph DMUs spare (the 175s have no long term future guaranteed, much of the 185 fleet will be freed up by the 802s and mk5s, ScotRail replaced dozens of 170s with EMUs, WMT and GA are replacing all of their 170s, Northern are ordering 100mph DMUs to ultimately replace 75mph Pacers via cascades). Maybe (some of) the twenty 171s with Southern will be replaced by some form of bi-mode trains before long.

Given the plethora of 100mph DMUs perfectly suited to provide additional capacity on the Stansted/ Nottingham/ Cardiff services, why would you overcomplicate things with HSTs/ Mk4s/ loco haulage/ 222s, why would you bring in 125mph trains (with the "crumple zones" that such stock require) when the services they run aren't timed for such fast running?

I know it's a boring answer, but maybe the solution for these services is just more Turbostar carriages, maybe portion working beyond Cambridge to accommodate the short platform at Stansted, but maybe also running doubled up Turbostars on most departures from Birmingham at least as far as Leicester/ Gloucester/ Nottingham?

Instead we'll keep seeing suggestion of these services as a dumping ground for HSTs or 222s or other stock facing redundancy - if there are 125mph trains going spare then consider putting them on the main long distance XC services where that kind of train is needed (though you may have to skip some intermediate stops if you want to run long HSTs on some services)

 

[pt_mad]

There seems to be a trend for suggesting over-specced trains for the ex- Central Citylink services that now live in the XC franchise.

There was talk of sending some of the TPE 185s to Ireland because we are going to have so many 100mph DMUs spare (the 175s have no long term future guaranteed, much of the 185 fleet will be freed up by the 802s and mk5s, ScotRail replaced dozens of 170s with EMUs, WMT and GA are replacing all of their 170s, Northern are ordering 100mph DMUs to ultimately replace 75mph Pacers via cascades). Maybe (some of) the twenty 171s with Southern will be replaced by some form of bi-mode trains before long.

Given the plethora of 100mph DMUs perfectly suited to provide additional capacity on the Stansted/ Nottingham/ Cardiff services, why would you overcomplicate things with HSTs/ Mk4s/ loco haulage/ 222s, why would you bring in 125mph trains (with the "crumple zones" that such stock require) when the services they run aren't timed for such fast running?

I know it's a boring answer, but maybe the solution for these services is just more Turbostar carriages, maybe portion working beyond Cambridge to accommodate the short platform at Stansted, but maybe also running doubled up Turbostars on most departures from Birmingham at least as far as Leicester/ Gloucester/ Nottingham?

Instead we'll keep seeing suggestion of these services as a dumping ground for HSTs or 222s or other stock facing redundancy - if there are 125mph trains going spare then consider putting them on the main long distance XC services where that kind of train is needed (though you may have to skip some intermediate stops if you want to run long HSTs on some services)

Probably because HSTs or MK4 coaches are coming off lease within months rather than within 12 months or 2 years. I believe some of the ScotRail 170s are earmarked for East Midlands Railway. As for the others at ScotRail do we know if they've gone off lease or where they are?

Also bare in mind that the GWR castle HST sets are short and run on routes where DMUs could run and speeds are low. Similar situation on routes where the ScotRail HSTs will run. They won't be used for speeds a coupled DMU couldn't do but it's more a comfort and stock spec improvement thing as far as I can see.
Likewise the class 68 locomotive hauled services on the Fife Circle. They are short and they don't do huge speeds but it's an availability of stock thing and presumably it was quick and convenient to get hold of them when sets were needed.

 

[hexagon789]

As for the others at ScotRail do we know if they've gone off lease or where they are?

Didn't some go to Northern, with ScotRail ending up retaining more than they were originally?