Possible I go to Prison?

[starman20]

Hello I'm after some expert advice please.

I boarded a train without a valid ticket.When the ticket inspectors caught me I gave them £10 note,and asked to buy a ticket from a stop after I got on.He told me I was trying to dodge paying the £2.60

I should not of said can I buy a ticket from a stop after to try and get away with say a 30p difference.
He cautioned me took my details and now I have a letter "Intention to Prosecute"
I have filled in the relevant side to my story.But basically ive held my hands up saying its my fault.Ive asked to settle out of court to avoid a criminal record.Ive never been to court before.

My Question is If I go to court could I go to Prison? I have had 1 penalty notice when I was 17 (Im now 32") and payed that right away.

Has anyone on this forum been to court and what is the general outcome? I understand each case is differnet in the court

Thanks for your your help and advice Im sick with worry I could go down.

cheers

 

[mumrar]

First thing up, I'm certain you will NOT be going to prison.

As to court action, you've made an offer for the offence to settle out of court, but the decision as to whether court action takes place is with the TOC prosecuting. Sit tight, await whatever letter(s), keep prompt correspondance and keep copies too just in case. That's the best for now.

 

[222007]

Firstly welcome to the forum.

Right the simple answer is NO you cant go to prison. As an RPI i have been to court with a colleague for pretty much this kind of incident and the outcome was compensation to the TOC (train operating company) a fine plus the TOC's cost's and £15 victim surcharge. Im not saying this is always the case but i imagine its the usual format if found guilty. However as you have offered to settle out of court i cant imagine they'll refuse to accept that depending on which company it is

 

[starman20]

thanks mumrar for your quick reply.Im a natural born worrier I know I have done wrong.

When you said "I'm certain you will NOT be going to prison." How certain are you? Have you worked in court before or do you know the laws?

Im no good with legal matters.I appreciate your time I owe you a Pint.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
thanks 222007 for your post too. Maybe I will get some sleep tonight

 

[mumrar]

Although I'm not an RPI, I'm familiar with how these cases usually go and the fact that you've offered settlement, not ignored any correspondence either, it would not be in anyone's interest for you to be jailed, that takes some serial fare evading to end up there, as you know nobody seems keen to jail people for anything these days.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you offer to pay and, for some reason the TOC does not accept your offer to pay, you may be prosecuted. If you are prosecuted, then the sentence depends on which offence you are charged with - sadly you haven't told us this.
The very worst sentence you can receive is under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, is a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale, or a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale (or, for a second or subsequent offence, the Courts have the discretion to give sentence of imprisonment for up to 3 months but in practice this will be reserved for regular, repeat offenders*); and under the Railway Bylaws Act 2005 is a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

You also haven't told us in which jurisdiction this offence ocurred, but if it is in England then the maximum fine at level 2 is £500 and at level 3 is £1000.

These are the very worst penalties you face - you will be likely to receive more lenient treatment if you continue to cooperate and offer to pay.

If you wish further information then we really need to know more of the facts - what you are being prosecuted with, under which section of which Act of Law, which country and, just perhaps, what the "penalty" was 15 years ago under which Act. Probably better just to pop into a local law firm with all the papers for some free advice - hopefully that will put your mind at rest.

- - - - - - edit - - - - -
I've just looked up custodial sentences (ie imprisonment) for these offences during a couple of recent years chosen at random. There were none.

 

[Ferret]

Although I'm not an RPI, I'm familiar with how these cases usually go and the fact that you've offered settlement, not ignored any correspondence either, it would not be in anyone's interest for you to be jailed, that takes some serial fare evading to end up there, as you know nobody seems keen to jail people for anything these days.

The chances of going to prison are less than the square root of sod all! To get a custodial sentence, you'd have to commit a serious fraud of the magnitude of Carl Haywood - ie to the tune of lots of thousands of pounds. For a simple case of fare evasion, you'll just find that your wallet is a little lighter than it would've been.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I haven't seen any cases of inprisonment, and for the single offense of fare evasion, I think you would be unlucky if you got anything above £200 in total to pay (compensation+costs+fine) if it went to court.

 

[rail-britain]

I have a letter "Intention to Prosecute"

What is the charge / offence and Summary of Evidence?

 

[starman20]

Hello to people who replyed thanks.

Im sorry for not clarifying my offense in the letter says "offense of not having a valid ticket at the station"

Intention to take this to Magistrates court.

Thanks for all replys once again I should of wrote this in my 1st post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh 15 years ago was just a penalty fare,which I payed in the end at court.The judge asked me If i had things to sell goods to cover the £80 fine.He said He could send me to prison for 2 weeks.So then he asked" would you like free legal person"

I did in the end phone my work up and they lent me the money.went back to the court that day and payed them!

hope this helps.


Do you think the judge scared me into thinking I was going to prison? Maybe thats why sinse then its always been on my mind

 

[rail-britain]

my offense in the letter says "offense of not having a valid ticket at the station"

The summons needs to be more specific and mention the actual Act or Regulation that has been contravened

I would therefore copy the letter and send that back asking for details

 

[coupwotcoup]

I would have thought that anything that long ago would have been wiped
clean by now, no? I'm not a legal eagle, but would imagine the only way
that you would end up slopping out for a few weeks, is if you were fined
and continually defaulted on the payment.
Saying that, we live in austere times so you might get given a pot of paint
and a brush and told to tart up Wakefield station.
Hope all goes well but woe betide if you fail to pay your TV Licence...now
that is a prisonable offence.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The summons needs to be more specific and mention the actual Act or Regulation that has been contravened

I would therefore copy the letter and send that back asking for details

This isn't a summons, this is an intention to prosecute. IIRC they don't need to provide any specific statutes on that, as it purely is a notice, informing you that they intend to prosecute. The court summons will contain the charges.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have to say, that looking at the court results I see at work for the TOC I work with, the outcome very much depends on which court it goes to. Some courts appear to dish out steeper penalties than others.

I can confirm I have never seen anyone go to prison for what appears to be a simple case of first time fare evasion.

The majority of cases in this respect tend, on average around here to get a fine between £150 - £300 depending on the court involved and other factors (i.e. did the person co-operate, were they abusive, were BTP required, are they regulars etc). Then there will be costs which in my TOC are £110, plus compensation (the total fare avoided) and the victim surcharge of £15. Oh, and a criminal record.

Having said that, my TOC is very keen on Out of Court Settlements at the moment, so depending on which TOC you travelled with you may be in luck. I know that our lot will only accept an OCS as a single one-off cleared payment. They normally seem to ask for the fare avoided + somewhere between £55 and £110 as "costs". Not only is this less money, but it avoids a criminal record. The only caveat is that you will probably be asked to pay this in full with cleared funds immediately, which for some people may not be possible.

As always, good advice is to reply to any letters promptly and politely as this will stand you in good stead.

Please note, however, that the comments above are not based on any legal opinion or statement of fact - merely generalisations based on my observations of situations I have seen.

Hope all goes well, good luck!

 

[Ferret]

This isn't a summons, this is an intention to prosecute. IIRC they don't need to provide any specific statutes on that, as it purely is a notice, informing you that they intend to prosecute. The court summons will contain the charges.

Not having a ticket at the station was what the OP said - that sounds like a byelaw breach to me. OP - please keep us updated and we'll advise as best we can.

 

[Lee_Again]

I'm not sure why anybody is offering 'advice' to this thief. This guy boarded the train with no intention to pay. Until he was caught he was quite happy for the rest of us to pay his fare for him. I'm not suggesting jail is the correct punishment in this instance but he deserves everything that's coming to him. At the very minimum he'll get a well deserved criminal record.

For all those that think I'm a Daily Mail reading bigot, think of it like this. Next time you go to Tesco and the bill comes to £50, Tesco will add on £5 for the shop lifters who don't pay. Exactly, you'd leave your goods at the till and walk away; and quite rightly. Why is fare dodging not viewed the same?

Pay your fares buddy, and if you need advice, pay for a lawyer yourself. The guys offering advice on here do it in their own time and provide an invaluable service to those of us who are law abiding, decent people. Thieves aren't welcome.

 

[nedchester]

I'm not sure why anybody is offering 'advice' to this thief. This guy boarded the train with no intention to pay. Until he was caught he was quite happy for the rest of us to pay his fare for him. I'm not suggesting jail is the correct punishment in this instance but he deserves everything that's coming to him. At the very minimum he'll get a well deserved criminal record.

For all those that think I'm a Daily Mail reading bigot, think of it like this. Next time you go to Tesco and the bill comes to £50, Tesco will add on £5 for the shop lifters who don't pay. Exactly, you'd leave your goods at the till and walk away; and quite rightly. Why is fare dodging not viewed the same?

Pay your fares buddy, and if you need advice, pay for a lawyer yourself. The guys offering advice on here do it in their own time and provide an invaluable service to those of us who are law abiding, decent people. Thieves aren't welcome.

Oh dear!

I suspect you go along with the lie that train fares are so high because of fare evasion do you?!

The bloke has admitted his crime and asked for advise end of.

I doubt whether there is a person in the land that hasn't nicked something whether it be a pencil from work, avoided the train fare or something else. Get down of your high horse!

 

[Ferret]

Lee, while I agree that this bloke has done wrong, he's asked for assistance and owned up to his error. He's asked what the consequences will be, and he's been told - he's likely to be fined and receive a criminal record. He won't be going to see Norman Stanley Fletcher, which I think was what worried him.

Now, I don't know this for sure, but if they do issue a Court Summons, it appears he'll be prosecuted under the byelaws. Of course, that would mean he's being charged with a strict liability offence and so won't be able to offer a defence. In short, if that's what happens, there's little we can do for him anyway! The OP has done the crime and will now have to receive his punishment - as described above.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Of course, that would mean he's being charged with a strict liability offence and so won't be able to offer a defence.

Can I be really pedantic and state that a strict liability offence means that no mens rea need be proved, only the actus reus. Of course it boils down to him of not being able to get out of it, but from a legal standpoint it's a bit different.

 

[Ferret]

Ralph, you're a pedantic sod!
I was trying to keep it simple!

One further point for Lee - as somebody who is involved in revenue protection myself, I'm interested to see people come on here saying they're being prosecuted for whatever - at the very least it proves to us all that justice is being done.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ralph, you're a pedantic sod!
I was trying to keep it simple!

Sorry!

 

[Lee_Again]

Oh dear!

I suspect you go along with the lie that train fares are so high because of fare evasion do you?!

The bloke has admitted his crime and asked for advise end of.

I doubt whether there is a person in the land that hasn't nicked something whether it be a pencil from work, avoided the train fare or something else. Get down of your high horse!

I never said "fares are so high" although every pound not collected in revenue is another pound the government (and that means our, yours and mine, taxes) must contribute; it's not soley responsible but is a factor in fare calculation.

"The bloke has admitted his crime"... well that's OK then. Remember, a thief is a thief. You don't become a thief once you're cought. You're a thief once you commit the crime. This guy only admitted his crime after he got caught. Nowhere in his post did he indicate he would own up at the police station and offer to pay his fare.

"I doubt whether there is a person in the land that hasn't nicked something "... speak for yourself. Many people, most infact, try their hardest, despite often difficult circumstances, to lead good honest lives. I take your point about a pencil from work, but where do you draw the line? The law draws a clear distinction between petty theft and more serious crimes. Fare evation is not petty theft.

And to add further comment, most serious criminals started life by stealing small items. If they hadn't of stolen that Mars bar then maybe they wouldn't have mugged the little old lady.

I guess we all fall in to one of two camps. I think I've indicated the camp I'm in (and teach to my kids). Good luck in your camp!!

 

[Ferret]

Sorry!

This whole strict liability offence thing was not something I knew about until the RPIs were trained in PACE recently. I was chatting to one about their trip to Court to see justice being served, and he explained in layman's terms how it works.

I really should dig out my old law books from my A-Level days to read up on it all!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I really should dig out my old law books from my A-Level days to read up on it all!

It is in there

 

[Ferret]

It is in there

I'm sure it is! We never covered it though (bearing in mind this was over a decade ago).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm sure it is! We never covered it though (bearing in mind this was over a decade ago).

It's quite an interesting subject actually, as strict liability offences contravene Human Rights - the right to a trial in front of a jury.

 

[rail-britain]

I'm not sure why anybody is offering 'advice' to this thief

Innocent until proven guilty
If the charge is not safe then it should not be thrown out of court

I have been on both sides of the fence, defending and accusing
You have to make sure the documents are in order, that applies to both sides

 

[nedchester]

I never said "fares are so high" although every pound not collected in revenue is another pound the government (and that means our, yours and mine, taxes) must contribute; it's not soley responsible but is a factor in fare calculation.

"The bloke has admitted his crime"... well that's OK then. Remember, a thief is a thief. You don't become a thief once you're cought. You're a thief once you commit the crime. This guy only admitted his crime after he got caught. Nowhere in his post did he indicate he would own up at the police station and offer to pay his fare.

"I doubt whether there is a person in the land that hasn't nicked something "... speak for yourself. Many people, most infact, try their hardest, despite often difficult circumstances, to lead good honest lives. I take your point about a pencil from work, but where do you draw the line? The law draws a clear distinction between petty theft and more serious crimes. Fare evation is not petty theft.

And to add further comment, most serious criminals started life by stealing small items. If they hadn't of stolen that Mars bar then maybe they wouldn't have mugged the little old lady.

I guess we all fall in to one of two camps. I think I've indicated the camp I'm in (and teach to my kids). Good luck in your camp!!

Interesting comment to say that most serious criminals started life by stealing small items. However, 99% of the population have 'stolen' small items at some point (I know I have). However, 99% of those have not turned to serious crime so that is a rather silly statement.

I am not saying it is right to say nick a pencil from work but it happens.

Fare evaders are dealt with by TOCs but there is nothing wrong with them asking for advice here. And again there are quite a few on here who have at some point travelled by train for free (and haven't got caught / been able to pay - delete as appropriate). They are not serious criminals as a result though.

Oh and I do teach my kids that stealing is wrong; there is no difference between my morals and yours. I am just a little more realistic about the situation.

 

[Ferret]

It's quite an interesting subject actually, as strict liability offences contravene Human Rights - the right to a trial in front of a jury.

Yes, I remember when my colleague said 'basically, you're reported for the offence because you've done it, and you go to Court to receive your punishment', my first thoughts were 'how the hell can that be right?'.

Still, I'm sure the Company Prosecutor loves it - no wonder the Railway Companies don't lose many cases at Court!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fare evaders are dealt with by TOCs but there is nothing wrong with them asking for advice here. And again there are quite a few on here who have at some point travelled by train for free (and haven't got caught / been able to pay - delete as appropriate). They are not serious criminals as a result though.

Well, I think we may see more of this kind of thread on here Nedchester. There does seem to be a drive by TOCs to prosecute for fare evasion now to act as a deterrent to others. My personal opinion is that the BTP weren't overly bothered about fare evasion, which is why we now have PACE-trained RPIs/REOs dealing with the situation, only calling for Police help as a last resort. The TOCs then employ a Prosecutor to deal with the cases, rather than going through the CPS (who used to throw perfectly good cases out).

Lee will doubtless be pleased to hear that people who my Employers reported for byelaw breaches related to ticketing generally found themselves a minimum of 300 quid out of pocket! Probably should have just paid their fares......

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure why anybody is offering 'advice' to this thief. This guy boarded the train with no intention to pay. Until he was caught he was quite happy for the rest of us to pay his fare for him. I'm not suggesting jail is the correct punishment in this instance but he deserves everything that's coming to him. At the very minimum he'll get a well deserved criminal record.

For all those that think I'm a Daily Mail reading bigot, think of it like this. Next time you go to Tesco and the bill comes to £50, Tesco will add on £5 for the shop lifters who don't pay. Exactly, you'd leave your goods at the till and walk away; and quite rightly. Why is fare dodging not viewed the same?

Pay your fares buddy, and if you need advice, pay for a lawyer yourself. The guys offering advice on here do it in their own time and provide an invaluable service to those of us who are law abiding, decent people. Thieves aren't welcome.

Let the law handle this, there is no need for you to stick your boot in too. He has admitted his error.

Please can I advise you in future (consider this a final warning if you like) NOT to post in the Fares and Ticketing section again UNLESS you are providing constructive advice. Yes, you can post opinions on this forum (providing you stick to the forum rules) but this specific section is specifically for advice. If you don't want to post advice, that's fine, don't post.