Possible future Southeastern HS1 fleet

[Trainlog]

I do find the 395s impressive trains. They might be in the same family as the IETs, but are very different though.

I found the IETs on GWR disappointing for that reason when I first went on one. They came nowhere close to matching the decent seat comfort, ride, or build-quality standards of the Javelins. Fortunately, Southeastern's recent refurbishments of the 395s were not a downgrade in quality.

I would certainly welcome a microfleet introduction to supplement the Class 395s, provided they meet the same qualities of the Javelins. If the only complaints I have about using the Javelins are the luggage racks that block windows, and the fact that they can get quite crowded during rushour, then they are definitely decent trains that serve their niche well.

This is really the only benefit of BEMUs for Southeastern, but realistically how likely is such a service actually? You'd need to do some costly upgrades to the Marshlink line, and journey times from London to Hastings/Ore wouldn't be massively faster than Southeastern, meaning that not many people will pay the HS1 fare. The idea of HS1 to Hastings being a cheap, easy win as long as some BEMUs are acquired is a bit of a myth. Upgrading the Marshlink line is a good idea, but it makes more sense as a separate project with more East Coastway integration (e.g. through services to Brighton) since Southern will eventually have to get some BEMUs anyway.

Agreed, any new developments on the Marshlink should primarily focus on re-upgrading the singled sections back to double track and on domestic BEMUs to replace the Turbostars. It's a nice idea to have High-speed services to Rye and Hastings; however, just implementing some of those necessary upgrades first to try and establish a half-hourly domestic service in either direction would be a good start.

The Marshlink can certainly do with some of these upgrades if the funding becomes available. Rye has become a rather trendy tourist destination, and this is reflected in the fact that there are few spare airline-style or table seats on the turbostars when departing Ashford International. I can also imagine a half hourly Marshlink service being a more effective alternative route to Hastings from those visiting from London, in the case of Tonbridge-Tunbridge wells engineering works disrupting the Hastings line.

 

[WideRanger]

At the risk of opening things up unhelpfully, could the class 395 be redeployed to long distance routes from the southeast to the north via kensington olympia, while the HS1 routes get new trains?

 

[NCT]

Would it be possible to have a fleet of trains that can reach 300km/h on HS1 to help reduce capacity constraints in light of increasing international traffic? Or would the requirement for third rail compatibility throw a spanner in those works with an already expensive bespoke fleet? Between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet I can't see much issue since the max line speed there is 230km/h.

Where is the need? There are 4 international paths an hour and the chance of demand exceeding that capacity is next to zero. 300km/h trains are in a different cost bracket to 230km/h ones. Why would Treasury pay a hefty incremental cost for a potential incremental benefit it knows will not materialise?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2026 ==

As all domestic trains stop at Ebbsfleet and Ashford, a domestic 300km/h train would only reach top speed for a relatively short journey anyway.

The xx 20/50 (down) domestic paths (currently) don't stop at Ebbsfleet otherwise they'd get rundown by the next xx 31/01 international paths.

 

[Sorcerer]

Where is the need? There are 4 international paths an hour and the chance of demand exceeding that capacity is next to zero. 300km/h trains are in a different cost bracket to 230km/h ones. Why would Treasury pay a hefty incremental cost for a potential incremental benefit it knows will not materialise?

Four international paths per hour as of now? Because don't forget Virgin will be looking to launch services within the next five years and Trenitalia have expressed interest in it as well. Assuming services on the domestic side don't increase I can probably see the odd 230km/h train running, but frequent mixing of speeds is a capacity restraint even on routes equipped with cab signalling.

 

[NCT]

Four international paths per hour as of now? Because don't forget Virgin will be looking to launch services within the next five years and Trenitalia have expressed interest in it as well. Assuming services on the domestic side don't increase I can probably see the odd 230km/h train running, but frequent mixing of speeds is a capacity restraint even on routes equipped with cab signalling.

Eurostar runs 1 or 2 international trains per hour in most hours - Paris is not even hourly and Brussels / Amsterdam is mostly 2 hourly. Eurostar, Virgin and Trenitalia aspirational service levels are easily accommodated in the 4 international paths per hour.

The timetable structure has 4 international and 8 domestic paths per hour in each direction. It's not an issue. The standard St Pancras departure pattern is this
01 international Paris
04 international Brussels
07 domestic Ashford
16 domestic Gravesend
20 domestic Ashford
25 domestic Gravesend

And repeat for the other half hour.

And it's the mirror image in the other direction.

Currently when not all paths are used in hours operators exercise a bit of leeway. The Brussels service sometimes uses the xx16 paths if it doesn't have a Paris train to flight with through the Chunnel - it can because the 'standard' xx16 path is only used for Maidstone peaks. Similarly SE runs its domestic Gravesend service in the xx20 path instead of the xx25 path just because it can.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Four international paths per hour as of now? Because don't forget Virgin will be looking to launch services within the next five years and Trenitalia have expressed interest in it as well. Assuming services on the domestic side don't increase I can probably see the odd 230km/h train running, but frequent mixing of speeds is a capacity restraint even on routes equipped with cab signalling.

Yes the upcoming Virgin services alone will almost double the amount of international services. If Trenitalia decide to jump in using their new Paris depot we may well see an increase of around 150% in international services.

 

[Sorcerer]

Eurostar runs 1 or 2 international trains per hour in most hours - Paris is not even hourly and Brussels / Amsterdam is mostly 2 hourly. Eurostar, Virgin and Trenitalia aspirational service levels are easily accommodated in the 4 international paths per hour.

The timetable structure has 4 international and 8 domestic paths per hour in each direction. It's not an issue. The standard St Pancras departure pattern is this
01 international Paris
04 international Brussels
07 domestic Ashford
16 domestic Gravesend
20 domestic Ashford
25 domestic Gravesend

And repeat for the other half hour.

And it's the mirror image in the other direction.

Currently when not all paths are used in hours operators exercise a bit of leeway. The Brussels service sometimes uses the xx16 paths if it doesn't have a Paris train to flight with through the Chunnel - it can because the 'standard' xx16 path is only used for Maidstone peaks. Similarly SE runs its domestic Gravesend service in the xx20 path instead of the xx25 path just because it can.

Well, the Gravesend paths aren't an issue because they will always run to max line speed. I suppose even with Virgin and Trenitlalia paths you'd be getting about 16-18tph, which isn't exactly outside of TVM430's capabilities to handle. This might make it harder to run freight, but to be honest I don't think they should be running that on HS1 anyway. The question is whether we can squeeze in extra international passenger trains without losing capacity due to 230km/h commuter trains sharing part of the journey.

Yes the upcoming Virgin services alone will almost double the amount of international services. If Trenitalia decide to jump in using their new Paris depot we may well see an increase of around 150% in international services.

I imagine capacity at St Pancras would be more of an issue to that now compared to the line capacity with TVM430. I was mostly thinking about whether or not it'd be possible to get the most out of the line even with mixed speed trains.