Possible fine

[Tomparle96]

Hello all, new member here

I traveled from Huyton train station in Liverpool to broadgreen trainstation (2stops) without a ticket as I intended to buy it on the train on the 4th of April
I told the officer I had left a ticket on the train.
I have received a letter from the debt recovery team asking me to respond with my explanation as I gave them all of my correct personal information.

I ask what do I do and what will be the consequences of my mistake for anyone whose been through this before. I am in the process of writing my letter now and I'm happy to pay the penalty fare for my mistake.

Help would be much appreciated

 

[Tomparle96]

I would also add this is my first ever offence and the first time I've ever done this if that helps

 

[Tomparle96]

I have written this letter

Dear sir/madam

I am writing in response to a letter received by myself on the 26th of April 2018 in regards to a conversation I had with a member of your staff on the 4th of April 2018 over a ticket.

I had entered a train from huyton to broadgreen with the intention of purchasing the ticket during my travel. As that opportunity didn't arise when I arrived at broadgreen I headed for the exit when I was approached by a member of your staff. In my panick I told him I had left my ticket on the train and proceeded to give him all of my personal information. I realise now I should have asked that member of staff if I could have purchased a ticket there and then and deeply apologise for my failure to do so.

Further more I apologise to all of northern rails staff and your team for the financial and time costs of my actions. I thank your member of staff for reminding me of the importance of purchasing a ticket before I travel and treating me in a polite and professional manner and apologise to him personally. I am fully aware of my wrongdoing and offer my reassurance that I have learned my lesson and will never attempt to travel again without prior purchase of a ticket.

I hope we can resolve this matter without it being escalated any further than it needs to be by way of a payment of a penalty fare along with any administrative costs and the cost of the journeys fare so we can put this matter firmly behind us. I again offer my sincerest apologies and admit I have been fully in the wrong in this situation.

Yours sincerely,

Thomas

 

[Tomparle96]

I know I'm asking a lot as a new user but I really need some advice

 

[mikeg]

I suggest removing your name from the post, if it is your real name. Presumably the ticket office was open? In that case it is unlawful to board the train without a ticket. This is a requirement under the railway byelaws unless there was a sign saying you could pay on the train or you had another form of authority to travel from an appropriate authorised person. Even if there were no facilities for ticket purchase, you committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways act 1889 s5 by lying to the revenue inspector to attempt to find a way out of having to buy a ticket (from which it would not excuse you anyway). To clarify: You buy your ticket before you get on the train. However as regards the letter, if you'll excuse the pun I believe you're on the right track, I'm sure someone could help you make it even better. To clarify: Unless it's one of the trial areas penalty fares do not apply when travelling with Northern, so the full fare due plus any administrative costs would be more appropriate.

The outcome though I can't guarantee anything will probably involve an eighty quid admin fee plus the anytime single for the journey you made. These tend to be offered automatically by Northern in a manner that mimics penalty fares to some extent, to the extent that they have earned the nickname 'penalty fake' within the rail community. Make no mistake however, from a legal perspective it forms a genuine out of court settlement, nothing more or less and you should pay any such charge if it is offered in order to avoid going to court, where you would be fined and depending on the charges receive a criminal record.

 

[Tomparle96]

Thank you for the advice. I'm fully aware of my error and know that regardless of the small price of my ticket what I did was fully unacceptable.
Does anyone think court would actually be a option they would pursue?

 

[Tomparle96]

Letter written to be sent off today with a first class stamp. Will let you know how it goes, how long does a response usually take?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You said in your first sentence that you intended to buy a ticket on the train

You told the officer (ticket inspector?) that you left your ticket on the train

So did you actually buy a ticket on the train or did you lie to the officer?

Edit: just read your letter and see that you weren't entirely truthful. I'm sure the experts will be along soon but at best, you might receive a penalty fare; at worst, it will go to court. It will in part, depend on your attitude and cooperation towards the officer on the day

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You said in your first sentence that you intended to buy a ticket on the train

You told the officer (ticket inspector?) that you left your ticket on the train

So did you actually buy a ticket on the train or did you lie to the officer?

Edit: just read your letter and see that you weren't entirely truthful. I'm sure the experts will be along soon but at best, you might receive a penalty fare; at worst, it will go to court. It will in part, depend on your attitude and cooperation towards the officer on the day

Receiving a Penalty Fare would seem unlikely at this stage - they usually are required to be completed in the presence of the passenger in question. An offer of out-of-Court settlement for £80 plus the fare not paid is more likely, if they decide not to go straight to prosecution.

 

[Tomparle96]

I panicked on the day and have explained in the letter about what happened and fully admitted my wrongdoing whilst apologising to all staff at northern rail as well as personally to the officer in question

Do you really think court would be a possibility given I have told them I’ll cooperate with any fine they chose to give me

 

[Tomparle96]

I have my letter prepared along with a first class stamp
On the day I was fully cooperative with the officer and gave him all of my correct personal information
I have never had any issues with northern rail before either

I’m sorry for asking questions you long term members must have seen constantly but I’m really nervous given the formality of the letter

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In brief, I think you should send your letter now to Northern Rail.

In rather more detail:
When you were caught by the railway, you did something very stupid - you lied about whether you had a ticket.

You've recognised that, and you are now doing the right thing, which is telling the truth.

From what has been reported on this forum in other cases, the most likely response from Northern Rail will be to ask you to pay £80 plus the price of the ticket (we call this 'they will offer you a settlement'). But note that we can't guarantee that this will be what Northern Rail do. They can choose to take matters further and take you to court. It's also worth mentioning that if they do offer you a settlement and you refuse, they then still have the right to take you to court - which could cost you more and leave you with a criminal record.

The letter you showed us above is good in that it is clear, apologetic and offers to make a payment to settle the matter.

Send the letter off, and then you will have to wait. From what we see on this forum, it seems to take the railways some weeks or months to reply. So
- make sure you have the money put to one side to pay the probable £80 (plus your fare) fee
- try to get on with your life without worrying too much about what will happen
- if Northern Rail are generous enough to offer you a chance to settle for the £80 plus train fare, accept their offer, and
- don't do it again: railway companies come down a lot harder on repeat offenders, so next time you may not be offered a chance to pay as little as £80.

 

[Tomparle96]

Thank you for the response it has put my mind at ease
I am terrified at the prospect of a court date as it will effect my career but from the information you have given me I feel more confident

 

[falcon]

This is important: you say you told the officer you had left your ticket on the train

Did you tell him when questioned that you had not left your ticket on the train or will your letter be the first time you admit you never had a ticket?

You need to answer this question.

 

[Tomparle96]

The letter would be the first time that I’ve admitted I didn’t buy a ticket
I just feel honesty would be the best policy and really regret my mistake in the way I acted

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They have no obligation to offer to settle out-of-Court. All the same, Northern do often offer to do so, provided you are not already 'known' to them in terms of previously having had your details taken in connection with a ticketing irregularity.

There is nothing more you can do once you have sent your letter until you receive their response (probably in some weeks or possibly even a month or two) and there isn't much point worrying - though of course it's easy to say that in a rational and non-threatened state of mind!

 

[najaB]

Did you tell him when questioned that you had not left your ticket on the train or will your letter be the first time you admit you never had a ticket?

You need to answer this question.

I don't really see the relevance unless the OP intends to continue lying.

 

[Tomparle96]

I panicked and made a mistake by telling the officer that, I'm going to be honest and hope they see that I have made a bad error of judgement and feel extremely apologetic about the situation

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As mentioned up thread, all you can do now is wait for Northern to reply and in the meantime, try and move on from the incident and get on with your life. But be prepared to pay something when you receive a response

 

[falcon]

I panicked and made a mistake by telling the officer that, I'm going to be honest and hope they see that I have made a bad error of judgement and feel extremely apologetic about the situation

But did you tell the officer you did not have a ticket at all?

You need to answer this. Otherwise you may be going to make another bad error of judgment.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But did you tell the officer you did not have a ticket at all?

You need to answer this. Otherwise you may be going to make another bad error of judgment.

Is this relevant now? The OP couldn't produce a ticket; it makes no difference if he left it on the train or told the officer he didn't have a ticket at all and the OP has now sent off his letter saying he left it on the train.

He will just now have to wait for Northern's response

 

[falcon]

Is this relevant now? The OP couldn't produce a ticket; it makes no difference if he left it on the train or told the officer he didn't have a ticket at all and the OP has now sent off his letter saying he left it on the train.

He will just now have to wait for Northern's response

It does make a difference. He should answer the question so we have the fact's. Then he can be advised correctly.

Where does it say he has sent the letter?

 

[Tomparle96]

There appears to be some confusion, I told the officer I left a ticket on the train out of panick instead of actually asking him if I could purchase one there and then
As I have put in my letter, which I haven't sent yet as I needed to consult this thread, I have admitted my wrongdoing and apologised for my actions

Sorry for the confusion. I have not said in the letter that I left my ticket on the train

 

[najaB]

It does make a difference. He should answer the question so we have the fact's. Then he can be advised correctly.

Unless the OP wants to continue to lie I can't see why this makes a difference. Could you explain for me please?

 

[falcon]

There appears to be some confusion, I told the officer I left a ticket on the train out of panick instead of actually asking him if I could purchase one there and then
As I have put in my letter, which I haven't sent yet as I needed to consult this thread, I have admitted my wrongdoing and apologised for my actions

Sorry for the confusion. I have not said in the letter that I left my ticket on the train

I am not getting an answer to the qusetion I am asking here!

Lets try this:

You say in your letter Quote "I thank your member of staff for reminding me of the importance of purchasing a ticket before I travel and treating me in a polite and professional manner and apologise to him personally" end quote.

If the member of staff (the officer involved) reminded you of the importance of purchasing a ticket before travel" Then he must have known you never purchased a ticket at all and that you had lied about leaving it on the train!
Is that correct that you told him you never held a ticket at all?

 

[Tomparle96]

I fully intended on getting a ticket, didn't manage to get one, went to leave the station and when I asked me to show my ticket I said I'd left it on the train instead of admitting that I needed to buy one

 

[Tomparle96]

I don't know how much clearer I can repeat that

 

[najaB]

If the member of staff (the officer involved) reminded you of the importance of purchasing a ticket before travel" Then he must have known you never purchased a ticket at all and that you had lied about leaving it on the train!

I don't follow that argument. The statement about purchasing before boarding could well have been generic and wasn't necessarily accusatory - e.g. "You need to pay before you get on board and keep your ticket until you finish your journey."

 

[falcon]

I don't know how much clearer I can repeat that

You need to try and be a lot clearer. This is not making sense now.

Why in your letter are you saying quote:"for reminding me of the importance of purchasing a ticket before I travel"end quote.

How did the officer know you had not purched a ticket(to remind you) if you said you had left it on the train and did not admit you had never in fact purchased one?

That statement in your letter indicates the officer knew you never held a ticket.

Yet you say in the above post: "I said I'd left it on the train instead of admitting that I needed to buy one"

We need to be clear about whether or not you admitted to the officer that you never held a ticket or not?

 

[najaB]

We need to be clear about whether or not you admitted to the officer that you never held a ticket or not?

In my opinion it really doesn't matter. A Byelaw 18 offence would be complete if the OP boarded at Huyton without a ticket despite there being working facilities to pay for for their ticket. A RoRA 5.3 offence was complete when they headed towards the exit rather than attempting to purchase a ticket at Broad Green.