Possible changes to Southern & SouthEastern rolling stock?

[FR510]

There is no real difference in acceleration rate between different sublcasses of 465 (if there was, they wouldn't all be used together in service).

465s are quicker off the mark than a 375. Metcams are also quicker off the mark than a BREL. Single 466 unit was the quickest of all. Stopping them was another thing though!

 

[SolomonSouth]

465s are quicker off the mark than a 375. Metcams are also quicker off the mark than a BREL. Single 466 unit was the quickest of all. Stopping them was another thing though!

Yeah I have timed it and Metro-Cammell builds are 15 secs better to 54mph than a BREL. Not sure on single 466 unit. But 465/9 was 43 secs to 54mph, so I'm guessing 466 would be pretty similar.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

What is the decision behind some of the 465’s going into store? Is it less reliable ones? I originally thought it would be all 465/2 and 466’s. But it doesn’t seem like that.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Also the SEML has 100mph running between Sevenoaks and Hildenborough but the rest of the line and the CML are max. 90mph

What about Tonbridge to Ashford!?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2021 ==

377s are awful on the Maidstone. They notoriously lose time. Bloody awful units.

465s on the Maidstone will be more consistent and outpace a 377 for sure.

It doesn't help with catching up, and being stuck, behind a stopper between Kent House and Shortlands/Bromley South - then having to cross from the fast to the slow lines before Swanley. Then the speed restriction between Maidstone East and Bearsted.

Hopefully, once the Bearsted embankment works are completed in August, timings will improve on that section

 

[ComUtoR]

That speed restriction is punishing but does highlight how much accelleration is a factor.

 

[brad465]

It doesn't help with catching up, and being stuck, behind a stopper between Kent House and Shortlands/Bromley South - then having to cross from the fast to the slow lines before Swanley. Then the speed restriction between Maidstone East and Bearsted.

Hopefully, once the Bearsted embankment works are completed in August, timings will improve on that section

That speed restriction is punishing but does highlight how much accelleration is a factor.

Yes as a user of that line (although more commonly towards London than towards Ashford) it'll be good to see the back of that restriction. There was a similar 20mph restriction between West Malling and Borough Green for up trains due to another landslip there, and while not as long as the Bearsted one distance wise, it was more or less slap bang in the middle of the two stations and thus delays almost always occurred, until it was repaired earlier this year.

Is it also possible that Guard operation on a line with several calling points (which maybe favours DOO) is a factor in poor performance of these trains? Of course this would apply to other stock too but I can see this adding time in any case.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is it also possible that Guard operation on a line with several calling points (which maybe favours DOO) is a factor in poor performance of these trains? Of course this would apply to other stock too but I can see this adding time in any case.

I don't know but on the services I travel on, the guard is very prompt at dispatch. Sometimes, the train can spend time at Maidstone East which perhaps, could be looked at? Unless it's for a driver's PNB...

But the 377s are certainly an improvement over the 465's...

 

[Class 466]

Yes as a user of that line (although more commonly towards London than towards Ashford) it'll be good to see the back of that restriction. There was a similar 20mph restriction between West Malling and Borough Green for up trains due to another landslip there, and while not as long as the Bearsted one distance wise, it was more or less slap bang in the middle of the two stations and thus delays almost always occurred, until it was repaired earlier this year.

Is it also possible that Guard operation on a line with several calling points (which maybe favours DOO) is a factor in poor performance of these trains? Of course this would apply to other stock too but I can see this adding time in any case.

Southeastern’s mainline services are all Driver Open Guard Close so don’t face the same problems as say SWR which is guard open and close (for now.)

 

[CarrotPie]

What about Tonbridge to Ashford?

Forgot about that bit. Odd since I drove it in Train Sim the day before!

Southeastern’s mainline services are all Driver Open Guard Close so don’t face the same problems as say SWR which is guard open and close (for now.)

Why is there a mix between DOO/DCO and full guard operation? Does this apply to the 465/9s too? Also what is the mode of operation on the Medway Valley and Isle of Sheppey lines?

 

[SolomonSouth]

But the 377s are certainly an improvement over the 465's...

In most things, yes. However the 465/9s accelerate quicker which allows them to run to time on the Chatham Main Line despite 90mph speed limits. I'm not saying 377s are bad at accelerating. They are actually still quite good. It's just that 465/9s are better.

And then remember, most 377 combinations I have seen are 7/8/11/12 coaches which restricts acceleration. Whereas the 465/9 I timed at 43 seconds to 54mph was a 10-car (2 465/9s and 1 466) and yet was unaffected. So there's that factor too.

However 377s are definitely more "the train of the future" than the 465s.

 

[CarrotPie]

In most things, yes. However the 465/9s accelerate quicker which allows them to run to time on the Chatham Main Line despite 90mph speed limits. I'm not saying 377s are bad at accelerating. They are actually still quite good. It's just that 465/9s are better.

And then remember, most 377 combinations I have seen are 7/8/11/12 coaches which restricts acceleration. Whereas the 465/9 I timed at 43 seconds to 54mph was a 10-car (2 465/9s and 1 466) and yet was unaffected. So there's that factor too.

However 377s are definitely more "the train of the future" than the 465s.

Southeastern has:

• 25x4-car 377/1/5s
• 68x4-car 375/6/7/8s
• 34x4-car 375/9s
• 10x3-car 375/3s

Bearing in mind that 4 375/3s are used all day on the Sheerness and Medway Valley Lines (5 in the peak), this leaves essentially 4-6 3-car units to make "unusual" formations:

• 6: 3/3
• 7: 3/4
• 9: 3/3/3
• 10: 3/3/4
• 11: 3/4/4
• 12: 3/3/3/3 OR 4/4/4

SE 375s and 377s don't work in multiple with each other, even though the two are effectively technically homogeneous. However, 375s do serve the Maid E line, I have seen them! (If you're wondering, my profile picture is 377164 at Barming, with 377508 trailing)

Southern has:

• 29x3-car 377/3s (28 ex-375/3s and 1 ex-377/4)
• 34x5-car 377/6/7s

Thus facilitating easier 6/7/9/10/11 car formations as they have a much larger and flexible fleet.

Finally, let us not forget that 465s are the fastest accelerating DC EMU in the UK, so they always win that over the Electrostars.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, if only the 377's had the acceleration of a 465, or 700 even...

 

[class379]

Aren't the 377/375s limited by software in terms of acceleration? So in theory could they be as fast as a 465?

 

[brad465]

However 377s are definitely more "the train of the future" than the 465s.

Performance maybe, but the Southeastern leased ones are in dire need of a refurb. As a user of the MDE line, the contrast between the interior of the poor 377s and good 375s is distinct.

 

[ComUtoR]

Aren't the 377/375s limited by software in terms of acceleration? So in theory could they be as fast as a 465?

The isolated motors are a huge factor in their uselesssness (seriously I really dislike them) but even 465 Vs 375 the Networker beats it hands down. Metro units are all about accelleration and, as mentioned, the stop start nature of Metro services is heavily reliant on acceleration. Mainline is all about top speed and comfort. Networkers are notoriously speedy.

And then remember, most 377 combinations I have seen are 7/8/11/12 coaches which restricts acceleration. Whereas the 465/9 I timed at 43 seconds to 54mph was a 10-car (2 465/9s and 1 466) and yet was unaffected. So there's that factor too.

In what way ? Surely the power to weight ratio doesn't change so the acceleration remains consistent. I'd be interested to know and see some hard numbers as to how the consist changes the overall acceleration (other than degraded situations)

However 377s are definitely more "the train of the future" than the 465s.

377s are just as crap. Desiro City, Aventra, Azuma.. these are 'trains of the future'. Come [redacted] when 707s hit the SE network, everything will look even more dated.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Yes, if only the 377's had the acceleration of a 465, or 700 even...

465/9s are faster than 700s on DC. 49 secs to 60 vs 60+ seconds to 60. Its not even close from what I can see.
377s are better than 700s on DC - 57 secs to 60 vs 60+.

Aren't the 377/375s limited by software in terms of acceleration? So in theory could they be as fast as a 465?

As said so many times, 465/9s are much much faster than /0 or /1 BREL units. So please specify which subclass you are talking about first.

In what way ? Surely the power to weight ratio doesn't change so the acceleration remains consistent. I'd be interested to know and see some hard numbers as to how the consist changes the overall acceleration (other than degraded situations)

Current restrictions from what I've heard. It is weird though.

Performance maybe, but the Southeastern leased ones are in dire need of a refurb. As a user of the MDE line, the contrast between the interior of the poor 377s and good 375s is distinct.

Umm the 465/9 is faster than a 377. So how is the 377 more the "train of the future" performance wise? Are you saying train acceleration is getting slower? I'm confused.

 

[FR510]

Forgot about that bit. Odd since I drove it in Train Sim the day before!

Why is there a mix between DOO/DCO and full guard operation? Does this apply to the 465/9s too? Also what is the mode of operation on the Medway Valley and Isle of Sheppey lines?

On the Island & the Valley the driver releases the doors and the guard closes them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Aren't the 377/375s limited by software in terms of acceleration? So in theory could they be as fast as a 465?

377's were initially restricted so there power take mirrored VEP / CIG until various power upgrades were completed but suspect there was then no appetite to get them reprogrammed and potentially new acceptance testing being required after those infrastructure upgrades were completed. The 377/6 certainly feel as though they are faster as do 387/2's which presumably means they were certified at full power rating of the traction packages.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 3775 all-shacks Victoria-Ashford via Maidstone East services certainly don't see any significant fast running so presumably, any power upgrades wouldn't be worthwhile anyway

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The 3775 all-shacks Victoria-Ashford via Maidstone East services certainly don't see any significant fast running so presumably, any power upgrades wouldn't be worthwhile anyway

Maidstone East line was equipped to a high current railway for Eurostars/Class 92's back in early 90's so that isn't an issue. These trains were throttled back at birth and there is no incentive to unlock their full potential. They aren't underpowered but in a competition with a 755 they wouldn't win either but they would get away better and have a better top speed.

 

[AzureOtsu]

spoke to a conductor today, southern has no plans to replace the 313s or 455s despite the lease running out. it costs them £1 a week to lease them apparently

 

[brad465]

spoke to a conductor today, southern has no plans to replace the 313s or 445s despite the lease running out. it costs them £1 a week to lease them apparently

I presume you mean 455s? I'm not familiar with typical leasing train costs, but £1 a week sounds like next to nothing, so I can see why they'd hold onto them if overall maintenance costs added still make overall running costs cheaper than newer stock with a more expensive lease.

 

[D365]

Yeah I have timed it and Metro-Cammell builds are 15 secs better to 54mph than a BREL. Not sure on single 466 unit. But 465/9 was 43 secs to 54mph, so I'm guessing 466 would be pretty similar.

It's a pity I can't share any manufacturer train data here, because there really isn't a difference between the two.