Possible changes to Southern & SouthEastern rolling stock?

[brad465]

From what I heard from the 376s apparently moving to SE, alot of govia staff says that's apparently gonna happen however there are quite alot of rumors in itself going around SE and GTR staff

Do you mean "376s apparently moving to Southern"?

 

[Rail.Fan]

Could the 376s be moved because they are going to completely replace the fleet with Desiro City’s in the near future?

 

[JonathanH]

Could the 376s be moved because they are going to completely replace the fleet with Desiro City’s in the near future?

It doesn't have to be Desiro City units. Any such order would go out to tender but in principle getting the 376s off the books might make a total fleet replacement easier and make transfer of the fleet staff to employment with the company chosen to manufacture the trains a bit more straightforward.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

More sensible would have been for 707's to allow 465's to be used to displace the 377's back to Southern so the 313's could be retired.

 

[Doomotron]

Could the 376s be moved because they are going to completely replace the fleet with Desiro City’s in the near future?

There are not enough 707s to replace 376s, and Siemens no longer build Desiro City units (or UK Desiros in general as well).

 

[RealTrains07]

There are not enough 707s to replace 376s, and Siemens no longer build Desiro City units (or UK Desiros in general as well).

Already? When was the desiro city production ended? May put the 707s future at risk for SE

 

[GEC465]

Do you mean "376s apparently moving to Southern"?

This is why I should not write stuff at 5AM XD

 

[A0]

More sensible would have been for 707's to allow 465's to be used to displace the 377's back to Southern so the 313's could be retired.

465s are 75mph units, the 377s are 100mph units. I'm going to guess that a 465 will struggle to meet 377 timings. Also aren't the 465's 3+2 'inner suburban' layout i.e. no tables etc, whereas the 377s are 2+2 'outer suburban' layout ?

 

[43096]

Also aren't the 465's 3+2 'inner suburban' layout i.e. no tables etc, whereas the 377s are 2+2 'outer suburban' layout ?

The 377s with South Eastern are mixed layout, with the driving cars being 2+2 and the centre cars being 3+2. In ye olde Southern terms, the driving cars are CIG replacements, the centre cars are VEP replacement.

 

[A0]

The 377s with South Eastern are mixed layout, with the driving cars being 2+2 and the centre cars being 3+2. In ye olde Southern terms, the driving cars are CIG replacements, the centre cars are VEP replacement.

Didn't know that - thanks for explaining.

There is a speed difference though 75mph compared to 100mph. Which I suspect has an impact on the longer journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

There is a speed difference though 75mph compared to 100mph. Which I suspect has an impact on the longer journeys.

On most of the routes it is barely noticeable - 465/9s happily kept to the schedules prior to the 377/5s arriving. Very few of the relevant routes on which 465s might be used have significant non-stop sections.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

465s are 75mph units, the 377s are 100mph units. I'm going to guess that a 465 will struggle to meet 377 timings. Also aren't the 465's 3+2 'inner suburban' layout i.e. no tables etc, whereas the 377s are 2+2 'outer suburban' layout ?

Networkers were deployed to the Tunbridge Wells stoppers many years ago and kept time although granted on the longer distance jobs not so suitable. Although I believe since Eurostars left using the SE classic routes in 2007 all lines were reduced back to 90mph. The 377's are used on the Maidstone East line which is 85mph PSR but has plenty of stops so doubt there is much difference on timings vs a 377 on the stoppers.

 

[bramling]

465s are 75mph units, the 377s are 100mph units. I'm going to guess that a 465 will struggle to meet 377 timings. Also aren't the 465's 3+2 'inner suburban' layout i.e. no tables etc, whereas the 377s are 2+2 'outer suburban' layout ?

I don’t think any of this is that much of an issue. 465s have worked far into Kent in the past, and indeed I think still do at times. It wouldn’t be too much of an issue to reconfigure the interior as was done with the Wealden units.

Lack of SDO was mentioned on here as being an issue for the Maidstone East line though, that issue would certainly require a solution to be found.

It does seem like events may have overtaken though - store some 465s temporarily to make room for the 707s, then bring them back to release the 376s.

If the 379s were added to the mix, most likely by replacing the GN 387s then Southern would probably have enough electrostars to be able to ditch the 313 and 455 fleets. The only snag with this is what happens with the GN peak extras, if they return to their pre-2020 levels then something else would be needed.

 

[CarrotPie]

Also the SEML has 100mph running between Sevenoaks and Hildenborough but the rest of the line and the CML are max. 90mph

 

[ComUtoR]

How many are staying my estimate is around 13 466 x 2 car and 87 465 466 x4 cars etc ie networker Wise.
Iff all to account for the 707 replacements

Sorry for the delayed reply.

My list only shows the number of units being removed from service, not specifically where they are going or being moved too

 

[brad465]

On most of the routes it is barely noticeable - 465/9s happily kept to the schedules prior to the 377/5s arriving. Very few of the relevant routes on which 465s might be used have significant non-stop sections.

Networkers were deployed to the Tunbridge Wells stoppers many years ago and kept time although granted on the longer distance jobs not so suitable. Although I believe since Eurostars left using the SE classic routes in 2007 all lines were reduced back to 90mph. The 377's are used on the Maidstone East line which is 85mph PSR but has plenty of stops so doubt there is much difference on timings vs a 377 on the stoppers.

I imagine what Networkers lose in lower top speed over 377s they gain in improved acceleration, especially on routes of semi-fast nature (probably not fast ones so to speak). The Maidstone East line is 80mph top, which is only a fraction above the 465 top speed, while the 90mph sections of the Chatham mainline are either broken up by regular calling points and/or the stretches being relatively short anyway. As for the Tunbridge Wells' services, the SEML is no higher than 70mph to almost Orpington from London, then 90/100mph to Tonbridge, but calls at Sevenoaks and Hildenborough impede speed anyway, and then no higher than 60mph to Tunbridge Wells, so there's not a lot that can impede a Networker set there.

Sorry for the delayed reply.

My list only shows the number of units being removed from service, not specifically where they are going or being moved too

How many are staying my estimate is around 13 466 x 2 car and 87 465 466 x4 cars etc ie networker Wise.
Iff all to account for the 707 replacements

In the Beckenham Junction storage thread I recall 6x 465s and 3x 466s being set for Worksop, plus the 2x465s and 1x466 in Beckenham that we thought was for scrap but has apparently been debunked. So unless that's not the full story I can see considerably more than 13x 466s and 87x465s staying at SE for now.

 

[SolomonSouth]

On most of the routes it is barely noticeable - 465/9s happily kept to the schedules prior to the 377/5s arriving. Very few of the relevant routes on which 465s might be used have significant non-stop sections.

465/9s accelerate much better than 377s

 

[ComUtoR]

I imagine what Networkers lose in lower top speed over 377s they gain in improved acceleration, especially on routes of semi-fast nature (probably not fast ones so to speak). The Maidstone East line is 80mph top,

377s are awful on the Maidstone. They notoriously lose time. Bloody awful units.

465s on the Maidstone will be more consistent and outpace a 377 for sure.

 

[brad465]

377s are awful on the Maidstone. They notoriously lose time. Bloody awful units.

465s on the Maidstone will be more consistent and outpace a 377 for sure.

Completely agree with that, 377s are the worst of both worlds in the sense they have acceleration akin to 375s, but don't have the nice interior of 375s. I'm almost certain the MDE line got 377s due to several stations with 6-car platforms that limited Networker length on them, unlike the Chatham Mainline where 8-car minimum allows Networkers to run all the way along its length to Dover on occasion in 4/6/8 car lengths and fulfil capacity needs. I certainly don't see the platforms being lengthened anytime soon, especially at Kemsing where the station is so poorly served it's closed on Sundays.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Completely agree with that, 377s are the worst of both worlds in the sense they have acceleration akin to 375s, but don't have the nice interior of 375s. I'm almost certain the MDE line got 377s due to several stations with 6-car platforms that limited Networker length on them, unlike the Chatham Mainline where 8-car minimum allows Networkers to run all the way along its length to Dover on occasion in 4/6/8 car lengths and fulfil capacity needs. I certainly don't see the platforms being lengthened anytime soon, especially at Kemsing where the station is so poorly served it's closed on Sundays.

I commuted on this line for nigh on 20 years and rarely anybody ever got on or off at Kemsing. Pointless station should have been shut years ago.

 

[Class 466]

Networkers were deployed to the Tunbridge Wells stoppers many years ago and kept time although granted on the longer distance jobs not so suitable. Although I believe since Eurostars left using the SE classic routes in 2007 all lines were reduced back to 90mph. The 377's are used on the Maidstone East line which is 85mph PSR but has plenty of stops so doubt there is much difference on timings vs a 377 on the stoppers

Tonbridge to Ashford and on towards Folkestone is still all 100mph. Nothing was downgraded.

 

[SolomonSouth]

377s are awful on the Maidstone. They notoriously lose time. Bloody awful units.

465s on the Maidstone will be more consistent and outpace a 377 for sure.

NOTE: Only the 465/9 has better acceleration than a 377. The 465/0 and 465/1 BREL units are much slower than 465/9s and so would be left for dead by a 377.
Presumably only 465/9s run the lines where speed limit is 90 (such as the Chatham main line) for this reason? 465 BRELs wouldn't accelerate fast enough to offset the top speed deficit?

 

[Class 466]

NOTE: Only the 465/9 has better acceleration than a 377. The 465/0 and 465/1 BREL units are much slower than 465/9s and so would be left for dead by a 377.
Presumably only 465/9s run the lines where speed limit is 90 (such as the Chatham main line) for this reason? 465 BRELs wouldn't accelerate fast enough to offset the top speed deficit?

There is no real difference in acceleration rate between different sublcasses of 465 (if there was, they wouldn't all be used together in service).

 

[ComUtoR]

465 BRELs wouldn't accelerate fast enough to offset the top speed deficit?

The problem is; you don't run to the maximum speed. Another problem is that the 377s struggle to achieve that top speed.

A Networker will storm up to 60 and then taper off towards 75 but it will achieve 75 and hold it. 377s are slow off the line and struggle to get past 75.

With the Maidstone East line, your performance is limited because of the stopping pattern so the statistics don't reflect the reality of running a train service. With a fair few of the stations being close together the Networker will hold the timetable much better.

377s are always late on that line.

 

[Class 466]

The problem is; you don't run to the maximum speed. Another problem is that the 377s struggle to achieve that top speed.

A Networker will storm up to 60 and then taper off towards 75 but it will achieve 75 and hold it. 377s are slow off the line and struggle to get past 75.

With the Maidstone East line, your performance is limited because of the stopping pattern so the statistics don't reflect the reality of running a train service. With a fair few of the stations being close together the Networker will hold the timetable much better.

377s are always late on that line.

Conversely, on the half hour thats fast Ashford to Bearsted, they often arrive 1-2 early on the up. That said the SRTs across Kent are dreadfully off in places.
Any Stop start work will always favour the 465/466s. Take the Medway Valley as an example - the timetable gained two minutes in December 2012 after 6 months of late running when 375/3s were introduced along there. Then when 466s went back briefly? Everything early.

 

[SolomonSouth]

There is no real difference in acceleration rate between different sublcasses of 465 (if there was, they wouldn't all be used together in service).

I'm sorry, it seems there is. I have videod it with a speed app. And they don't need to accelerate the same to be used together in service, as the timetable could perhaps be designed for the BREL 465 so if there is a metro-cammell 465 it can just be driven easier and still meet it. Also, metro-cammell units can simply be power restricted to match the BREL in multiple.
Here is the video of the BREL:

The metcam:

The problem is; you don't run to the maximum speed. Another problem is that the 377s struggle to achieve that top speed.

A Networker will storm up to 60 and then taper off towards 75 but it will achieve 75 and hold it. 377s are slow off the line and struggle to get past 75.

With the Maidstone East line, your performance is limited because of the stopping pattern so the statistics don't reflect the reality of running a train service. With a fair few of the stations being close together the Networker will hold the timetable much better.

377s are always late on that line.

Only the 465/9s storm up to 60. I got 43 seconds to 54mph. The BREL 465 took about 60 seconds to reach 54mph. Big difference there.
The 376 (very similar acceleration to a 375) took 53 seconds. Big difference

 

[ComUtoR]

As has been mentioned before...

You don't know what the Driver up the front is doing and how they are pulling away. It's not an accurate comparison.

 

[DorkingMain]

I commuted on this line for nigh on 20 years and rarely anybody ever got on or off at Kemsing. Pointless station should have been shut years ago.

I often thought Kemsing would probably be relegated to peak times only if it were in another part of the UK.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I often thought Kemsing would probably be relegated to peak times only if it were in another part of the UK.

230 trains/week or c12k trains/pa for 19,276 passengers in 2019/20 passenger count. So sounds like one person commutes to/from the station on a weekday probably. Given all the energy required to accelerate away again from every stop would save a bit of Co2 as well as energy cost as well as knocking a minute or two of timing to Maidstone East. There are plenty of nearby stations of Borough Green, Otford and Bat & Ball which clearly absorb 99.9% of the available traffic.

Anyway going way off topic

 

[SolomonSouth]

As has been mentioned before...

You don't know what the Driver up the front is doing and how they are pulling away. It's not an accurate comparison.

True, for the /0 at least. For the /9 it's clear because of the speed the gear-changing noise happens. You can quite easily tell.
A person who has driven 465s called emmo999 on youtube said in one of the comments sections of his videos that the Metro-Cammell builds are a bit quicker to accelerate than their BREL (Hitachi) counterparts, but that some /2s struggle at the top speed. So it is unit dependent at least with the Metro-Cammell to some extent.
Nevertheless, if he was a driver, he ought to know what he's talking about. This and the video both suggest Metro-Cammells are superior to BRELs- but we don't have manufacterer data to confirm. However I have seen some users on this forum also say that Metro-Cammells are quicker. Could be that they are driven more harshly