Possible changes to Southern & SouthEastern rolling stock?

[A0]

There seem to be several comments being made in different threads about stock moving into / out of SouthEastern and also to Southern. Have to admit I'm losing track a bit and it also raises a few questions so thought I'd create a new thread.

South-eastern:

Confirmed they'll be getting the 707s from SWR, so 30 x 5 car units.

It appears that some (all ?) the 465s and 466s are heading for storage - which is 147 x 4 car and 43 x 2 car units.

It has been mentioned that the 376s are moving to Southern (not sure if this is officially confirmed) so 36 x 5 car units.


Southern

Appears they may be receiving 376s - 36 x 5 car.

Southern have the following which are at or near life expiry:

455s 46 x 4 car
313s 19 x 3 car

And there's questions about the 171s - though that would need additional electrification - 8 x 4 car & 12 x 2 car.

If the moves mentioned happen then Southeastern would be down by 6 x 5 car units (difference between the number of 376s and 707s) and however many 465/6s.

If the move of the 376s is to replace or allow the replacement of the 455s and 313s then that would also leave Southern with fewer units and carriages 241 current vs 180.

So what's the logic of moving 376s to Southern ? Is there new stock en-route which nobody's mentioning ?

 

[ComUtoR]

South-eastern:

It appears that some (all ?) the 465s and 466s are heading for storage - which is 147 x 4 car and 43 x 2 car units.

It isn't the entire Networker fleet. Some are staying.

 

[A0]

It isn't the entire Networker fleet. Some are staying.

Which makes sense - but if the 376s move to Southern, that doesn't really work for either party - the 707s are a slightly smaller class than the 376s, so SouthEastern lose out. And there's not enough 376s to just replace the 455s let alone the 313s as well. Just seems a curious suggestion which doesn't really fix anything ?

 

[Recessio]

Is the 376 move confirmed or speculation?

 

[warwickshire]

It isn't the entire Networker fleet. Some are staying.

How many are staying my estimate is around 13 466 x 2 car and 87 465 466 x4 cars etc ie networker Wise.
Iff all to account for the 707 replacements

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is the 376 move confirmed or speculation?

A very reputable member of the forum who works for GTR confirmed that he had had it on good authority

 

[A0]

Is the 376 move confirmed or speculation?

Good question - it's been mentioned by a couple of posters who claim inside knowledge. But it's the reason I said not officially confirmed.

 

[Class455]

Is the 376 move confirmed or speculation?

Speculation. The 376’s are not moving to Southern - as far as I’m aware anyway.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

And there's questions about the 171s - though that would need additional electrification - 8 x 4 car & 12 x 2 car.

Thought the long term plan was for the 171's to be converted back to 170's and go to EMR

 

[LA50041]

Thought the long term plan was for the 171's to be converted back to 170's and go to EMR

Hasn’t that idea been scrapped as EMR are now getting 10 170’s from TFW

 

[TrainTrackJack]

Hasn’t that idea been scrapped as EMR are now getting 10 170’s from TFW

could be true yes

 

[JonathanH]

Speculation. The 376’s are not moving to Southern - as far as I’m aware anyway.

Seemingly speculation. However, there were indications from informed sources here and on other forums that there was at least some truth in the idea that 376s were the units originally considered to replace the 171s, complete with a substantial upgrade and batteries, and that this fell through. With this in mind, it is not outside possibility for 376s to be touted for transfer to Southern. However, that was presumably in connection with the SE franchise replacement and clearly that isn't happening any time soon.

 

[brad465]

Is the 376 move confirmed or speculation?

The first I heard of this supposedly happening was from @03_179, but nothing about such a move is publicly confirmed.

 

[ScotGG]

One big issue that many don't mention is that South-eastern have seen a lot if investment to enable a 12 car railway on most of the Metro routes (Hayes and all three Dartford lines). Much of Southern Metro is 8-10 max.

SE have a couple of obstacles to get over. SDO on trains to enable 12 cars to stop at Woolwich Dockyard and Charing Cross - which means new stock.

With new stock to SE, 376s and 707s can be used on 10-car max Southern routes. 10 car on SE doesn't maximise capacity in coming years and decades.

New stock for SE allows 8 car on Vic routes and 12 car on Hayes and Dartford routes.

 

[hwl]

One big issue that many don't mention is that South-eastern have seen a lot if investment to enable a 12 car railway on most of the Metro routes (Hayes and all three Dartford lines). Much of Southern Metro is 8-10 max.

SE have a couple of obstacles to get over. SDO on trains to enable 12 cars to stop at Woolwich Dockyard and Charing Cross - which means new stock.

With new stock to SE, 376s and 707s can be used on 10-car max Southern routes. 10 car on SE doesn't maximise capacity in coming years and decades.

New stock for SE allows 8 car on Vic routes and 12 car on Hayes and Dartford routes.

Much of the Victoria routes are actually fairly close to being 10car capable especially once you have SDO and DOO cameras which is were the 707 may have long term future if Hayes / Dartford etc goes 12 car in few years.

 

[Fincra5]

One big issue that many don't mention is that South-eastern have seen a lot if investment to enable a 12 car railway on most of the Metro routes (Hayes and all three Dartford lines). Much of Southern Metro is 8-10 max.

SE have a couple of obstacles to get over. SDO on trains to enable 12 cars to stop at Woolwich Dockyard and Charing Cross - which means new stock.

With new stock to SE, 376s and 707s can be used on 10-car max Southern routes. 10 car on SE doesn't maximise capacity in coming years and decades.

New stock for SE allows 8 car on Vic routes and 12 car on Hayes and Dartford routes.

With a lot of work for 376s... Depends if its even possible to retrofit DOO Cab Equipment (and cost), and A/C etc etc...

 

[Mollman]

Hasn’t that idea been scrapped as EMR are now getting 10 170’s from TFW

Yes that's what the press release seems to indicate - transferring the 171s contingent on suitable replacement was never going to be simple.

 

[ComUtoR]

Much of the Victoria routes are actually fairly close to being 10car capable especially once you have SDO and DOO cameras which is were the 707 may have long term future if Hayes / Dartford etc goes 12 car in few years.

Victoria cannot cope with 10s for Metro side. You would instantly lose 2 platforms (3/4) at Vic and the stations on the Chatham main are constrained by various pointwork and junctions. 10s are also bad for stabling purposes as they reduce space.

 

[ScotGG]

That's what I thought. 10 car is not a good fit for Southeastern long term. Doesn't maximise capacity on 12-car capable lines and too long for Vic 8-car routes.

 

[hwl]

Victoria cannot cope with 10s for Metro side. You would instantly lose 2 platforms (3/4) at Vic and the stations on the Chatham main are constrained by various pointwork and junctions. 10s are also bad for stabling purposes as they reduce space.

There are plans (or were post Covid?) to address the Victoria platform lenght issue.

 

[ComUtoR]

There is a resignalling project I'm led to believe but I haven't heard anything about platform length. 3/4 converge at the country end. I'd be stunned if they can lengthen the platforms at Vic. especially 3/4. If there are plans I'd certainly love to hear them.

 

[LA50041]

Seemingly speculation. However, there were indications from informed sources here and on other forums that there was at least some truth in the idea that 376s were the units originally considered to replace the 171s, complete with a substantial upgrade and batteries, and that this fell through. With this in mind, it is not outside possibility for 376s to be touted for transfer to Southern. However, that was presumably in connection with the SE franchise replacement and clearly that isn't happening any time soon.

if the 376's can be retrofitted with SDO equipment I could see a possibility of them replacing the 455's, however if they can easily be fitted it begs the question why Southeastern didn't do it to run 10 cards on the woolwich line. Also there would be an issue of stabling space if that were to happen as most depots are geared up for multiples of 4

 

[JonathanH]

if the 376's can be retrofitted with SDO equipment I could see a possibility of them replacing the 455's, however if they can easily be fitted it begs the question why Southeastern didn't do it to run 10 cards on the woolwich line. Also there would be an issue of stabling space if that were to happen as most depots are geared up for multiples of 4

Southeastern won't have done it because it wasn't in their franchise agreement. Enhancements within a franchise are quite unusual. They typically become something for the next franchisee to pick up.

There will need to be 4-car units on Southern as everything via Tulse Hill needs to remain 8-car. While the discussion about 376s on Uckfield seemed to be about reforming to 4-car / 6-car, direct replacement of 4-3-3 and 5-5 377 formations with 5-5 376 formations wouldn't appear to be an issue for stabling as many stay coupled in that form when stabled.

 

[LA50041]

There will need to be 4-car units on Southern as everything via Tulse Hill needs to remain 8-car.

Unless SDO is fitted

While the discussion about 376s on Uckfield seemed to be about reforming to 4-car / 6-car, direct replacement of 4-3-3 and 5-5 377 formations with 5-5 376 formations wouldn't appear to be an issue for stabling as many stay coupled in that form when stabled.

 

[JonathanH]

Unless SDO is fitted

Even if SDO is fitted, 8-car restrictions still apply on Southern at Caterham and Beckenham Junction without infrastructure work (and as discussed before the Southern timetable cleverly links Tulse Hill services to those two destinations).

 

[LA50041]

Even if SDO is fitted, 8-car restrictions still apply on Southern at Caterham and Beckenham Junction without infrastructure work (and as discussed before the Southern timetable cleverly links Tulse Hill services to those two destinations).

OK, I see what you meant. Yes there are 8 car restictions at Caterham and Beckenham, there are no restrictions at Tulse hill in general though

 

[JonathanH]

OK, I see what you meant. Yes there are 8 car restictions at Caterham and Beckenham, there are no restrictions at Tulse hill in general though

No, indeed, I have seen 10-car formations run through there when Dorking services are diverted to London Bridge but it probably is a bit of a nuisance to have SDO on trains that have a higher level of patronage (without wide gangways).

 

[ctrh136]

No, indeed, I have seen 10-car formations run through there when Dorking services are diverted to London Bridge but it probably is a bit of a nuisance to have SDO on trains that have a higher level of patronage (without wide gangways).

I think it also occurs when the Caterham / Tattenham Corner services are diverted via Tulse Hill.

 

[GEC465]

From what I heard from the 376s apparently moving to SE, alot of govia staff says that's apparently gonna happen however there are quite alot of rumors in itself going around SE and GTR staff

 

[ScotGG]

if the 376's can be retrofitted with SDO equipment I could see a possibility of them replacing the 455's, however if they can easily be fitted it begs the question why Southeastern didn't do it to run 10 cards on the woolwich line. Also there would be an issue of stabling space if that were to happen as most depots are geared up for multiples of 4

Woolwich line is 12 car except Woolwich Dockyard.

10 car 376s thus don't need SDO, but do not utilise max capacity like an SDO 12 car train would.