Possible AC EMU future cascade scenarios?

[RailWonderer]

I think it’s the HSTs and 321s that have made Scotrail insistent on electrification and new rolling stock.

 

[XAM2175]

But even if there were electrified lines wanting extra stock, *this particular* fleet - only five units, non-gangwayed, non-standard, probably needing major overhauls - wouldn't have been likely to be popular with any operators. You can say that they ought to have been specified with future re-use in mind, but why would HAL, 17 years ago, have specified something different from what they wanted, on the off-chance of improving reuseability in 2022?

Indeed. And even with a single national fleet strategy as some people are proposing, it would have need to include incentives, or a mandatory compliance mechanism, in order to have any bearing on stock bought outside the franchising system.

 

[Razorblades]

I think it’s the HSTs and 321s that have made Scotrail insistent on electrification and new rolling stock.

Well, that and its stated intent in 'transitioning Scotland to a net zero economy.'

 

[RailWonderer]

Well, that and its stated intent in 'transitioning Scotland to a net zero economy.'

The government in Whitehall is promising that too, just Scotland seems to be more serious about it.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Might ScotRail be interested in the 350/2s as "360 ish" to allow retirement of the 318s?

I would hope SR would look at the 350/2’s but it seems more likely that new build stock will be ordered. Ideally the 350/2’s could be added in the Central belt/Ayrshire, with the 380’s and some 385’s moved to solely run on the suburban routes. The 334’s could pick up the Argyle Line in time. Again though new builds seem far more likely which still leaves a question mark against the 350/2’s.

 

[Energy]

I think it’s the HSTs and 321s that have made Scotrail insistent on electrification and new rolling stock.

Evidently not the 321s as they wouldn't have gone for HSTs.

I would hope SR would look at the 350/2’s but it seems more likely that new build stock will be ordered. Ideally the 350/2’s could be added in the Central belt/Ayrshire, with the 380’s and some 385’s moved to solely run on the suburban routes. The 334’s could pick up the Argyle Line in time. Again though new builds seem far more likely which still leaves a question mark against the 350/2’s.

It'll be new stock, SR are already procuring it.

 

[ExRes]

The government in Whitehall is promising that too, just Scotland seems to be more serious about it.

I believe that the person in charge of Scotland is promising many things as well, whether or not any of them can be delivered is another subject all together

 

[Trainbike46]

I believe that the person in charge of Scotland is promising many things as well, whether or not any of them can be delivered is another subject all together

In Scotland there is significant progress on the ground, in the form of electrification projects, planning and rolling stock procurement on a level not seen in England. Even if Scotland does miss its target, it won't be missed by much

 

[357]

Something many people fail to grasp, is that if they were needed by anyone - they could have leased them from ROG.

Nobody wanted to.

C2C actually looked at these units many years ago before taking on the speculative 387 order that Porterbrook made - it never amounted to anything.

 

[ExRes]

Something many people fail to grasp, is that if they were needed by anyone - they could have leased them from ROG.

Nobody wanted to.

Spot on

 

[Towers]

Something many people fail to grasp, is that if they were needed by anyone - they could have leased them from ROG.

Nobody wanted to.

C2C actually looked at these units many years ago before taking on the speculative 387 order that Porterbrook made - it never amounted to anything.

True, but this continues the theme of "nobody has a use for them today so it's fine to scrap them", without asking the question of how that situation had come about. Had Southeastern not found a use for the 707s, would people have been fine for them to all be sent to Newport and shredded, too? Perhaps with the seats still wrapped in plastic!

The point is that we have a body, the DfT, who insist on meddling, overseeing and micromanaging who is allowed to operate what, and yet despite their tight control of things there is total disarray and always has been. We've gone from having to weld up the rust and fit accessible bogs to near 40 year old Sprinters because they wouldn't allow anyone to buy new DMUs, to now having piles of servicable EMUs in every scrapyard because the industry is buying new stuff like kids buy sweets. Any excuse not to utilise what's already available, we'll have something shiny please. And of course nobody wants to store anything, because it costs money. Just throwing it away because it's cheaper than finding it use is an appalling attitude. It's even been pointed out that just removing the seat frames from these condemned 360s, despite them being industry standard and almost certain to find a use in a future project somewhere, can't happen, because nobody is capable of the logistics of putting them somewhere! It beggars belief.

You can look at a particular fleet, and you can decide that their fate is justified because, in the moment, it makes some sense. But where the industry desperately needs to be going is looking at the bigger picture, the chronic waste really needs to stop. As for the 360s, quite simply the industry should be better set up so that obscure microfleets becoming redundant at the point of mid-life simply doesn't happen. If it's running on our industry metals then it fitting into some sort of competent long term plan should be a condition of it being there!

 

[357]

True, but this continues the theme of "nobody has a use for them today so it's fine to scrap them", without asking the question of how that situation had come about. Had Southeastern not found a use for the 707s, would people have been fine for them to all be sent to Newport and shredded, too? Perhaps with the seats still wrapped in plastic!

The point is that we have a body, the DfT, who insist on meddling, overseeing and micromanaging who is allowed to operate what, and yet despite their tight control of things there is total disarray and always has been. We've gone from having to weld up the rust and fit accessible bogs to near 40 year old Sprinters because they wouldn't allow anyone to buy new DMUs, to now having piles of servicable EMUs in every scrapyard because the industry is buying new stuff like kids buy sweets. Any excuse not to utilise what's already available, we'll have something shiny please. And of course nobody wants to store anything, because it costs money. Just throwing it away because it's cheaper than finding it use is an appalling attitude. It's even been pointed out that just removing the seat frames from these condemned 360s, despite them being industry standard and almost certain to find a use in a future project somewhere, can't happen, because nobody is capable of the logistics of putting them somewhere! It beggars belief.

You can look at a particular fleet, and you can decide that their fate is justified because, in the moment, it makes some sense. But where the industry desperately needs to be going is looking at the bigger picture, the chronic waste really needs to stop. As for the 360s, quite simply the industry should be better set up so that obscure microfleets becoming redundant at the point of mid-life simply doesn't happen. If it's running on our industry metals then it fitting into some sort of competent long term plan should be a condition of it being there!

The DfT have never had anything to do with these units though. If they wanted, they could probably have got them for scrap value to store for the future.

I agree their actions on other fleets are crazy, but for this one they never had any authority.

 

[Towers]

The DfT have never had anything to do with these units though. If they wanted, they could probably have got them for scrap value to store for the future.

I agree their actions on other fleets are crazy, but for this one they never had any authority.

Indeed, but that's part of the issue. It all comes nicely under the general lack of cohesion!

 

[Poyntz]

I'm interested in the facts of what is happening but the level of speculative discussion is in danger swamping them. Might a separate thread in the speculative discussion section be appropriate?

 

[91108]

What speculation ? They are being scrapped, there is nowhere for them to go. The discussion from me is how has it come to this ?

 

[bramling]

I'm interested in the facts of what is happening but the level of speculative discussion is in danger swamping them. Might a separate thread in the speculative discussion section be appropriate?

There probably isn't going to be much in the way of facts. Two scrap moves have happened, with presumably three more to come. The general view is that Sims set to work on stuff more or less as soon as it arrives, so once the last scrap move happens that will likely be that for the 360/2 story.

 

[DanNCL]

Sorry if I’ve missed this but which unit went to Newport today?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Sorry if I’ve missed this but which unit went to Newport today?

204 I believe.

 

[JN114]

If there had been more electrification completed, under construction or even just committed; they MIGHT have been snapped up or have a use earmarked. But as I alluded to earlier; their ownership is a significant hurdle - it required ROSCOs to purchase the units before leasing them out, which would have been more expensive than they have an appetite for with fleets and fleets of EMUs already sat in fields across the land costing a fortune.

But there isn’t - as far as I can tell East Kilbride is the only current ongoing/committed electrification programme currently on the books, and there is already rolling stock for that with better deployment of Scotrail’s fleet. The various upcycling projects have virtually come to nought, and have put the industry off going down those roads again, so there’s no future in a parcels or bimode conversion.

So the 360s go from being undesirable but worth a punt if there’s nothing else available cheaper than new-build; to economically unviable.

The government won’t stump up the cash for electrification.

It certainly won’t stump up the cash to buy units that will only have a use if it stumps up the cash for electrification.

 

[43102EMR]

The point is the same: spare EMUs are useless for diesel routes.

Your “input” missed the more important point: we still have 40 year old diesels which are run into the ground roaming the UK rail network. If the government was serious about tackling the climate crisis, they would do something about it…

 

[43096]

If the government was serious about tackling the climate crisis, they would do something about it…

Agreed, but in the here and now, even if electrification is authorised now, five 5-car EMUs are of little consequence. It's no use jumping up and down about what did or didn't happen in the past, you can't go back and change it.

 

[SERA01UK]

It’s the same old reactionary posts. Given that the industry has a long, a very long history of disposing of locos, units and coaches that failed to reach their 20th birthday why are people still outraged. It’s a library list of traction and rolling stock that was disposed of because there was no further work for it or the work it was built for no longer existed. This is just one item more for that list, it’s not anyones fault just circumstances.

 

[DelW]

It’s the same old reactionary posts. Given that the industry has a long, a very long history of disposing of locos, units and coaches that failed to reach their 20th birthday why are people still outraged. It’s a library list of traction and rolling stock that was disposed of because there was no further work for it or the work it was built for no longer existed. This is just one item more for that list, it’s not anyones fault just circumstances.

Agreed - going back at least as far as BR's Standard steam locos, with around 1000 built, barely any of which reached the age that the 360/2s have. They were followed by various classes of type 1 diesels which similarly were gone within about 15 years, the exception being the class 20s. In both cases, situations and markets changed faster than anyone anticipated.

 

[Razorblades]

At last, some sense of perspective and proportion in the previous couple of posts. Airport work dried up due to change in circumstances. No alternative use elsewhere in the units' existing form, owner wishes to liquidate the asset. Razorblades.

 

[Mikey C]

Difficult to imagine it was particularly intensive compared to a lot of other stock on the network.

Yes, these 360/2s had an easy life. Ditto the 332s.

Covid has changed things. It wasn't long ago that total fleet replacement was seen as the way to go forward, with cheap borrowing and low inflation making this more attractive than just replacing the oldest stock. And making new trains a more attractive option than renewing expensive leases (as with the 730s replacing 350/2s at WMT) or a more attractive proposition than second hand trains for expansion (the 720s at C2c).

 

[Irascible]

quite simply the industry should be better set up so that obscure microfleets becoming redundant at the point of mid-life simply doesn't happen.

Well, quite, obscure microfleets shouldn't happen in the first place. These are in a bit of a murky place given their history, but if some other bigger subclass goes to scrap just because it's very slightly different in an apparently too awkward way there ought to be a *lot* of shouting. The lack of standards & subsequent costs all over the place should have people shouting anyway. This isn't really any different to the shotgun-ordering of the modernisation plan.

 

[antharro]

Just out of curiosity. How much would it have cost to put connecting doors and 3rd rail equipment on these?

 

[D365]

Yes, these 360/2s had an easy life. Ditto the 332s.

It was reported on this forum, at the time of their scrapping, that the Class 332 fleet was in a rather poor mechanical condition...

 

[XAM2175]

Just out of curiosity. How much would it have cost to put connecting doors and 3rd rail equipment on these?

I'm going to take a shotgun approach here and say "more than can possibly be justified".

 

[Doomotron]

Just out of curiosity. How much would it have cost to put connecting doors and 3rd rail equipment on these?

In the 'what's the point?' region...