Possible £3,000 penalty for using ticket bought at station

[johnnyinamoto]

TL/DR version
My Brother buys a London Travel Card Zone 1-6 from the station he travels from, which is not in Zone 6. Police stopped him and said he’s liable for £3,000 in back payments.

Full story
I live in the home counties, around 20 miles outside of TFL’s Zone 6. I can buy a London Travelcard from my station, which implicitly includes the trip between my train station and whichever Zone I’ve paid for. I have never had a problem using this method to get around.

My brother lives much closer to London. About 5 miles and 2 stops outside TFL’s Zone 6. He thought he had the same deal as me. He buys a Zone 1-6 Travelcard from his local station ticket machine to go to work. For a number of years he’s showed his ticket to many ticket inspectors before, during and at the end of his journeys.

The other day he was stopped by an undercover police officer. He was told that the police have been monitoring him for months, and accused him of fare dodging due to the fact that the first 2 stops of his journey were outside of Zone 6, and therefore not paid for. He went on to let him know that he will be required to pay back everything owed.

We worked out that the officer was correct, in that the ticket that the machine gave him didn’t cover his first 2 stops. He hasn’t had any contact yet, but my own calculations are that he owes around £3k due to how long he’s been doing it (which he admitted to the officer).


Can anyone advise whether we can appeal this? How we can appeal this? Whether we have a chance of overturning it or reducing it?

It feels quite harsh, and also a bit of a waste of police resources. The ticket inspectors at his home station could have told him this years ago.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@johnnyinamoto. Welcome to the forum. In view of what you say, and, in particular, the amount potentially at stake, your brother should perhaps now seek obtaining specialist legal representation.

 

[JonathanH]

We worked out that the officer was correct, in that the ticket that the machine gave him didn’t cover his first 2 stops.

In my experience ticket machines will issue a travelcard from the station the machine is located at unless there is customer intervention. The origin station is shown on the ticket.

Is the proposed defence that the ticket machine issued a travelcard from inside Zone 6. If so, which station does it show on the tickets as the origin?

Someone would find it very simple to look at tickets with the specified origin and the location code (NLC) of the ticket machine. Indeed, they may even monitor the number of remote issue travelcards sold at a particular location and check CCTV footage if they spot a pattern.

As an example, I could use a ticket machine at Redhill to buy a Travelcard with an origin of Coulsdon South, then cross the road to legitimately use the 405 bus, but an inspector would know it was obtained from the machine at Redhill.

 

[Haywain]

Was it a police officer or a plain clothes railway revenue inspector? It would seem much more likely to be the latter.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be helpful to know which stations are involved in case there is a defence.

 

[johnnyinamoto]

Thanks for all your replies.

It would be helpful to know which stations are involved in case there is a defence.

I thought I would be vague, just in case they looked here, but I’m happy to share. My local station is Stevenage, and his is Earlswood.

Was it a police officer or a plain clothes railway revenue inspector? It would seem much more likely to be the latter.

I don’t know for sure it wasn’t a plain clothes railway revenue inspector. My brother told me he had an unusual-looking police badge. I’ll ask him again.

Is the proposed defence that the ticket machine issued a travelcard from inside Zone 6

In terms of the defense. The defense is he didn't know he was in the wrong. He bought travelcard from Earlswood and expected to be able to use it from Earlswood. Unless I’ve misunderstood your question JonathanH?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

How did you calculate the £3000?

 

[johnnyinamoto]

How did you calculate the £3000?

Ticket paid for was £74
Should be paying £103
Saved £29 every week for 2 years is £3016

 

[Elecman]

What he will owe is 2xsingle fares per day for the journey between Earleswood and the first station within Zone 6, not the difference between what he paid against what he should have paid

 

[JonathanH]

The defense is he didn't know he was in the wrong. He bought travelcard from Earlswood and expected to be able to use it from Earlswood.

If the ticket says it is valid between

Earlswood (Surrey) & London Zones 1-6

it is valid at Earlswood. Pressing the Travelcard button on Southern machines and doing nothing else will sell exactly that.

If there is intervention and Earlswood is replaced by another station, at the next stage in the booking process, it will sell that instead, and the ticket will say it is valid between

[Other station] & London Zones 1-6

The ticket will also somewhere have the location code for the Earlswood self service ticket machine which is 4056.

 

[johnnyinamoto]

Ahh so I've spoken to my brother and confirmed a few things:

Was it a police officer or a plain clothes railway revenue inspector? It would seem much more likely to be the latter.

He identified himself as police. From the fraud squad.

The ticket will also somewhere have the location code for the Earlswood self service ticket machine which is 4056.

I initially thought it was a paper ticket, but apparently it wasn't. He was adding a weekly travelcard to his oyster from the Earlswood ticket machine.

 

[JonathanH]

I initially thought it was a paper ticket, but apparently it wasn't. He was adding a weekly travelcard to his oyster from the Earlswood ticket machine.

Ah, that provides some clarity - sorry for the questioning. I was a bit confused as to how a paper ticket could be bought that wasn't the right one without the origin being amended by the user, or the machine malfunctioning.

I'm not familiar with the way that Southern's machines retail Oyster products. It might be useful to know what the machine steps are to see whether there could be confusion.

I think I am right in saying that there isn't an Oyster product valid at Earlswood, only weekly capping on Contactless and Oyster / Contactless PAYG, but it would be permissable to have a Zone 1-6 travelcard then tap in daily at Earlswood and pay the outboundary cost via PAYG. Perhaps someone else could confirm.

 

[skyhigh]

What he will owe is 2xsingle fares per day for the journey between Earleswood and the first station within Zone 6, not the difference between what he paid against what he should have paid

If you're using that logic surely it would be an Earleswood to Boundary Zone 6? Which is £5.00 for an Anytime Single or £10.00 for an Anytime Return.

 

[johnnyinamoto]

It might be useful to know what the machine steps are to see whether there could be confusion.

Yeah, I'll ask him to film the process of buying it. See if there are any warnings that it can't be used at that particular station.

If you're using that logic surely it would be an Earleswood to Boundary Zone 6? Which is £5.00 for an Anytime Single or £10.00 for an Anytime Return.

If this is true, he would owe £5,200, which is almost double.

 

[miklcct]

I think I am right in saying that there isn't an Oyster product valid at Earlswood, only weekly capping on Contactless and Oyster / Contactless PAYG, but it would be permissable to have a Zone 1-6 travelcard then tap in daily at Earlswood and pay the outboundary cost via PAYG. Perhaps someone else could confirm.

Yes it will be valid provided that he touches in and out for every journey correctly. The PAYG balance will be deducted to cover any extra zonal travel.

 

[Llanigraham]

In terms of the defense. The defense is he didn't know he was in the wrong. He bought travelcard from Earlswood and expected to be able to use it from Earlswood. Unless I’ve misunderstood your question JonathanH?

Ignorance is not a defense.

 

[JonathanH]

Ignorance is not a defense.

No. Indeed, only ever touching in at one end of the journey on Oyster is the sort of thing that attracts attention as well, perhaps enough for the railway operators to check where the Oyster product is being retailed.

 

[Haywain]

He identified himself as police. From the fraud squad.

It would be very, very unusual for the police to be involved. I suspect it was actually a member of the train company's revenue protection and fraud team.

If you're using that logic surely it would be an Earleswood to Boundary Zone 6? Which is £5.00 for an Anytime Single or £10.00 for an Anytime Return.

I think that would be a generous interpretation, and they may actually look for the whole journey.

 

[spag23]

Can the OP clarify the use of the word "from"? Did he buy a "from Earlswood" travelcard, or from the Earlswood TVM did he buy a ticket starting from Zone 6 boundary? I note there's no barrier at Earlswood to flag any issue.

 

[JonathanH]

Can the OP clarify the use of the word "from"? Did he buy a "from Earlswood" travelcard, or from the Earlswood TVM did he buy a ticket starting from Zone 6 boundary? I note there's no barrier at Earlswood to flag any issue.

The original poster makes it clear that an Oyster product was bought from the Earlswood TVM. The contention was that it was not clear that the product did not include travel to Earlswood.

However, the person travelling does not appear to have been touching in or out at Earlswood.

As you say, there are no ticket gates at Earlswood. There is, however, a single entrance when the ticket office is shut which has prominent Oyster readers.

 

[Hadders]

The ticket you've been using from Stevenage is a Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard. It is valid for to travel between Stevenage and the boundary of Zone 6 and then for unlimited travel on National Rail, Underground and Buses in fare zones 1-6. There are a few exceptions but we don't need to concern ourselves with them at this time.

Your brother has been travelling from Earlswood which is outside the zones. He would need an Earleswood to Zones 1-6 Travelcard but he's only been purchasing a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, leaving a gap between Earleswood and the Zone 6 boundary. As the travelcard was purchased on Oyster then as long as there was sufficient PAYG credit loaded on the Oyster card, and your brother touched in and out at the start and end of the journey, the additional fare would be deducted. Alternatively a paper ticket from Earleswood to the Boundary of Zone 6 could be used.

National Rail ticket offices cannot sell tickets on Oyster so the ticket must've been purchased at a ticket machine. Unfortunately it is the passengers responsibility to make sure they have the correct ticket before travelling and I cannot agree that investigating the case is harsh. I'd be surprised if you're dealing with the police over this, it's more likely to be Govia Thameslink Railway (maybe a Railway Enforcement Officer who wear a uniform that can easily be mistaken for a police officer).

If you are dealing with GTR then they will write to you asking for your version of events. I suggest you post a copy of the letter in this thread when it arrives, along with your draft reply and we can proof read it for you (do make sure you redact any personal details before uploading it). We don't usually see cases on here that involve the police, if it genuinely is the police who are dealing with the case (I highly suspect it isn't), then I suspect theey will want to interview you brother before deciding how to proceed.

 

[JonathanH]

Having looked at the machine at Epsom tonight, on touching the Oyster Card to the relevant pad, the option is given to buy a Weekly or Monthly Travelcard. Passengers are then presented with a menu of options to purchase Travelcards with different zonal combinations.



"Zone 1 to Zone 6" is one of eight options on the first screen, the others being "Zone 1 to Zone 2" through to "Zone 1 to Zone 9". Later screens have other combinations involving Shenfield, Watford Junction etc. Bear in mind that Epsom is outside Zone 6, yet these are the options shown.

I think there are two things to consider when trying to claim a defence that the interface is confusing:

Someone could conceivably think that because the Oyster product was being retailed at Earlswood it was valid there, but given all of the combinations are retailed what makes Zone 1 to Zone 6 the right selection?

If Earlswood was in Zone 6, why not touch in on the readers? (I understand that there is no requirement to touch in within the zones covered by an Oyster Product but if there is any element of uncertainty and it was believed that it was valid, touching in doesn't cost anything.)

The ticket inspectors at his home station could have told him this years ago.

Presumably any ticket inspectors working at Earlswood would have seen the Oyster card and required it to be touched in, thereby triggering an additional charge. Assuming that the person travelling had PAYG credit, they would notice it reducing whenever they were made to touch in or out. (This incidentally could also trigger an investigation if a correlation was seen between days that the Oyster card was touched in and when there were inspectors present.)

 

[alholmes]

Is there any chance your brother could download a statement of journey made for a recent typical week from the TfL website, then upload it here, obviously obscuring any personal details. That would enable us to understand exactly where the card is tapped in and out.

 

[AlterEgo]

Earlswood isn’t in the zones; you only need to look at the zonal map once in two years to know this.

I think this will be a difficult one to navigate but ultimately the outstanding fares will still be due even if there is no court action, and they will need to be paid basically immediately on receipt of any out of court offer.

 

[JonathanH]

Earlswood isn’t in the zones; you only need to look at the zonal map once in two years to know this.

I think that the person travelling accepts this.

Their intended defence appears to be that the machine was retailing an Oyster product that included travel from Earlswood to the zones and there was nothing apparent to suggest that it wasn't. I imagine GTR see it as a failure to touch in at Earlswood on a repeated basis.

The question is now what story to present to GTR.

 

[alholmes]

Another thought - does Earlswood station even have a ticket machine that would be capable of adding tickets to an Oyster card - it’s way outside the zones.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think that the person travelling accepts this.

Their intended defence appears to be that the machine was retailing an Oyster product that included travel from Earlswood to the zones and there was nothing apparent to suggest that it wasn't. I imagine GTR see it as a failure to touch in at Earlswood on a repeated basis.

The question is now what story to present to GTR.

There shouldn’t be a question of what story, they should tell the truth.

Earlswood is outside the zones and it’s not like this is a one off. At best it’s a spectacular failure to know where the zones are. Having the wrong ticket for two years is really quite negligent and the mere fact that the ticket can be retailed remotely, outside the zones, is at best mitigation. You only need to look at a map once in two years to realise the error.

In any case the OP didn’t have the “same deal” as their brother. They’ve been getting a ticket from Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 which doesn’t “implicitly” provide travel to and from Stevenage, it *explicitly* does.

Either way they need to find £3,000 to pay the correct amount for their travel. That’s all GTR are going to care about at this stage.

 

[Titfield]

I think it is generally accepted that the OP's brother owes the fares due. The question IMHO is how can he persuade the TOC or Police to accept that plus say an appropriate administration fee as an outcome rather than going to court and having a fine and victim surcharge on top of that.

I think trying to convince either the TOC or the Police that this was a genuine misunderstanding of what the product purchased actually entitled the customer to do (stations to travel between) is a mountain to climb. One could try reproducing the steps on the actual TVM and recording it but even then it would come back to whether or not a reasonable person would have taken the product displayed and purchased to entitle the customer to what the customer says he thought it did.

We talk about the attitude test but in this case I wonder whether the customer would almost be better off volunteering to be interviewed as this may enable him to convince the TOC or Police that it was a genuine misunderstanding. I do not have the benefit of seeing the steps on the TVM so do not know how realistic it is that the customer had a genuine misunderstanding.

AIUI the Ops brother has been buying weekly tickets for about 2 years so this would indicate 100+ purchase misunderstandings. It seems to me odd that having had the ticket checked "before during and at the end of his journey" (The OPs words) that no one picked up on this inconsistency of travelling to / from Earlsfield without covering (paying for) the first / last 2 stops. Could one argue that this reinforces the customers (mis)understanding that the ticket was valid? I think it is a point worth mentioning.

Personally I think the only way to get a satisfactory outcome for the OPs brother would be to be very contrite and apologetic and offer to pay all the fares due and an appropriate admin fee. I think the danger is that if the OPs brother even merely hints that he had doubts as to the ticket validity it would call into question why he did not make diligent enquiries. Perhaps he simply has to state that he fully believed the ticket was valid for the journeys he undertook as the ticket was checked on many occasions without question. The exact wording he uses will be significant.

 

[skyhigh]

Either way they need to find £3,000 to pay the correct amount for their travel. That’s all GTR are going to care about at this stage.

At least £3k. That has been calculated by the OP based on the difference in fares between a Z1-6 Travelcard and correct fare that would have included Earlswood. If they were to use Anytime Day Singles, the boundary zone fare as an addon or the full amount of the Earlswood travelcard (not just the difference) the settlement will be much bigger.

 

[Llanigraham]

Question.
The OP says his brother's tickets were checked and nothing was mentioned. Was that check only done after crossing the boundary into Zone 6? Could that have made a difference?