Possibities For a Railtour Operator Run MkIII Sleeper Service

[FQTV]

Following on from this post in the main Caledonian Sleeper thread, are there any routes which might have potential as a regular/seasonal railtour-type operation?

Noting that there would potentially be abstraction issues, as well as the sheer cost of such an operation requiring at least a reasonable level of stock utilisation, but also with a large pack of crayons:

Fridays
London King's Cross > Cambridge > Peterborough > York > Newcastle > Edinburgh > Crianlarich > Oban

Saturdays
Oban > Crianlarich > Glasgow > Edinburgh > Perth > Inverness > Kyle

Sundays
Kyle > Inverness > Edinburgh > Newcastle > York > Peterborough > Cambridge > London King's Cross

 

[twpsaesneg]

I'd like to see something like Harwich to Stranraer, maybe with a portion attached at Stafford from Portsmouth for Northern Ireland to Europe traffic.

Obviously completely non profit worthy but it would be interesting!

 

[Journeyman]

Complete nonstarter due to the state of the Mark 3 sleepers. They're almost impossible to operate reliably.

 

[Clip]

Brighton to Inverness

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'd like to see something like Harwich to Stranraer, maybe with a portion attached at Stafford from Portsmouth for Northern Ireland to Europe traffic.

Obviously completely non profit worthy but it would be interesting!

If surface transport takes over most of the flying market - as it has to if the planet is to survive - then a direct Holyhead-Harwich would be nice for Dublin-Europe. Though I guess it'd be more sensible - rather than cross Britain overnight - to get a morning Dublin boat and have a direct connection in the day from Holyhead to Harwich, and then go on the boat overnight, ready to set off from HvH first thing the next morning.

All fantasy of course, just at the moment.

 

[Aictos]

Following on from this post in the main Caledonian Sleeper thread, are there any routes which might have potential as a regular/seasonal railtour-type operation?

Noting that there would potentially be abstraction issues, as well as the sheer cost of such an operation requiring at least a reasonable level of stock utilisation, but also with a large pack of crayons:

Fridays
London King's Cross > Cambridge > Peterborough > York > Newcastle > Edinburgh > Crianlarich > Oban

Saturdays
Oban > Crianlarich > Glasgow > Edinburgh > Perth > Inverness > Kyle

Sundays
Kyle > Inverness > Edinburgh > Newcastle > York > Peterborough > Cambridge > London King's Cross

Not trying to be funny but you are aware that it sounds more like a charter then a open access operator? Plus it sounds like it would affect the revenue of the existing Anglo Scottish sleeper which isn't good either!

Why not instead if it's possible run a route between London Euston and Holyhead to enable a earlier arrival in Dublin? because at the moment, the earliest service from London is the 11:55 VT terminator at Holyhead which connects with the 14:00 ferry to Dublin however with a 04:00 or so arrival at Holyhead, you would be able to make a connection with the 05:45 ferry to Dublin.

The service would be timed to run at 75mph as do the other sleepers I believe?

 

[Bald Rick]

What do you mean by ‘potential’ ?

Likely to make a profit for the operator? (i.e. so the operator would actually want to run it)

Likely to see a reasonable level of custom?

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder, given the most popular nights for the Scotland Sleeper are Fridays and Sundays (and probably Thursdays to a reasonable extent), whether there is a market for an 'extra' sleeper London-Central Belt these nights only, for extra capacity.

Whether that's likely to actually turn a profit is, of course, another matter entirely...

 

[FQTV]

What do you mean by ‘potential’ ?

Likely to make a profit for the operator? (i.e. so the operator would actually want to run it)

Likely to see a reasonable level of custom?

potential
/pə(ʊ)ˈtɛnʃ(ə)l/
adjective

1. having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

 

[Bald Rick]

potential
/pə(ʊ)ˈtɛnʃ(ə)l/
adjective

1. having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

Ok, develop into what?

 

[FQTV]

Ok, develop into what?

With the greatest of respect, this is the Speculative Ideas forum, not the Fully-Costed Stress-Tested Investment-Backed Definite Proposals with Guaranteed Outcomes forum.

However, and for what it’s worth, the Northern Belle runs at high 90% loadings for £300 lunches. The Belmond British Pullman likewise. Closer to £400 for a Brunch and Dinner combination with a destination that folks want to go to, and significant on-sales with the average bottle of wine at £40+.

In the case of the Northern Belle, the West Coast Railway Company, which appears to have acquired some MkIII sleepers, of the same kind that GWR are planning to operate for some time to come, has more than a little insight into their market.

So, do feel free to speculate on how a company that does lunch for £300 might ruminate on the potential for capitalising on the possibility of extending the periods of time that they can keep their existing customers and target market spending.

 

[Killingworth]

In the realms of fantasy, the Great British Railtour, weekly, Penzance - Thurso.

Top quality needed for American/Japanese/Chinese tourists.

Make it hop on- hop off, like the Norwegian Hurtigruten.

 

[Tobbes]

I like the idea of a sleeper to Oban, and a revival of the SW/NE/Scotland sleeper axis. And railcruises apart (for which gutted Mark 3s sleepers rebuilt in a Grand Hibernian style are clearly an option) I don't see any consistent yovernight flows that will make it worthwhile doing. And if HS2 is in fact built as an LGV HSR all the way (under 3hr London-Edi/Gla?) then the future of the Lowlander seems pretty ropey as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

With the greatest of respect, this is the Speculative Ideas forum, not the Fully-Costed Stress-Tested Investment-Backed Definite Proposals with Guaranteed Outcomes forum.

However, and for what it’s worth, the Northern Belle runs at high 90% loadings for £300 lunches. The Belmond British Pullman likewise. Closer to £400 for a Brunch and Dinner combination with a destination that folks want to go to, and significant on-sales with the average bottle of wine at £40+.

In the case of the Northern Belle, the West Coast Railway Company, which appears to have acquired some MkIII sleepers, of the same kind that GWR are planning to operate for some time to come, has more than a little insight into their market.

So, do feel free to speculate on how a company that does lunch for £300 might ruminate on the potential for capitalising on the possibility of extending the periods of time that they can keep their existing customers and target market spending.

Ok fair enough.

I misunderstood your original question of “are there any routes that’s might have potential...” to mean were there any specific routes that might have a chance of there being a viable charter style land cruise sleeper service on a regular basis. Unlike the Northern Belle / Belmond Pullman which vary their routes week to week, save for the out and back via Guildford / Redhill, which is sold specifically as an experience, rather than as a journey to somewhere.

I’d argue that well heeled punters are more likely to part with £300-£500 for a very good lunch than around twice that for a (presumably) excellent dinner and breakfast, but not very good sleep in between, and then either the same again to get home or find your own way back.

So, in my view there is zero potential for a regular route, even on weekly basis. There *might* be potential for a Belmond Pullman style high end land cruise, with a different itinerary each week. Perhaps tied to guided travelling at the other end. But it would be a hardy traveller who does it, and the price would be necessarily high.

To put it into context, it costs an average of roughly £200 per single passenger journey to provide the Caledonian sleeper service, averaged across all classes of accommodation (including the seats) and all journeys. I don’t know the figures in detail but suspect the cost per passenger in a bed on the Highlander will be well the other side of £300. That’s for a relatively basic service.

 

[theblackwatch]

Complete nonstarter due to the state of the Mark 3 sleepers. They're almost impossible to operate reliably.

Presumably that's why a charter operator has acquired a rake? You might want to look at one of the headlines on the front cover of 'Steam Railway'.

 

[E100]

Would love for the sleeper to come through Newcastle up to the Highlands (Inverness and beyond or West Highland)

 

[30907]

Would love for the sleeper to come through Newcastle up to the Highlands (Inverness and beyond or West Highland)

Leaving aside the economics - and I realise the issues.
Thinking of touristy destinations that are not well served ATM:
Kings Cross (for tourists) - Stevenage (with secure parking! - other stations are available) - York - Stirling (reverse) - rear portion with breakfast car to Oban, time depending on pathing.
Front portion shunt to a bay until 0800, breakfast in an adjacent good hotel (I assume there is one?).
Out Friday return Sunday, arriving KGX after the peak for capacity reasons.
If you had bimode power you could perhaps run via Cambridge.

Use the set for one more return trip (not 2, these are elderly coaches!) during the week - the problem there is finding a destination that doesn't involve mainly diesel haulage. Kyle, but you'd either come straight back or stay a week - or have an organised tour of the Isles, and TBH I'd prefer to keep it simple!

 

[Aictos]

Question, if there was a business case for reintroducing a Plymouth to Scotland via Derby and Newcastle service could it be operated jointly between Great Western and Serco eg Serco is responsible for the Birmingham to Scotland sector and GW is responsible for the Plymouth/Bristol to Birmingham sector of course using a neutral brand.

 

[AndyCK]

Leaving aside the economics - and I realise the issues.
Thinking of touristy destinations that are not well served ATM:
Kings Cross (for tourists) - Stevenage (with secure parking! - other stations are available) - York - Stirling (reverse) - rear portion with breakfast car to Oban, time depending on pathing.
Front portion shunt to a bay until 0800, breakfast in an adjacent good hotel (I assume there is one?).
Out Friday return Sunday, arriving KGX after the peak for capacity reasons.
If you had bimode power you could perhaps run via Cambridge.

Again leaving aside the economics, could something like KGX - Whitby be theoretically feasible as charters? What got me thinking about this was something different to travel to events in Whitby such as the Goth Weekends or the Whitby Regatta - out Friday, return Sunday.

I imagine servicing and stabling would need to be done by arrangement on the NYMR - I doubt Bog Hall sidings would be a suitable place for servicing

 

[Chester1]

Not this again. Sleeper services ussually hemorrhage money and require significant government subsidy. There are only a handful of commercially viable public and private services in Europe that are profitable. The only plausible extension of sleeper services in UK would be extending Aberdeen sleeper to Inverness to serve intermediate stations and rationalise depots and maintenance. The very thing that makes this remotely feasible is that it could (just about) be done with no additional stock. It would be a political decision and require public sector investment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not this again. Sleeper services ussually hemorrhage money and require significant government subsidy. There are only a handful of commercially viable public and private services in Europe that are profitable. The only plausible extension of sleeper services in UK would be extending Aberdeen sleeper to Inverness to serve intermediate stations and rationalise depots and maintenance. The very thing that makes this remotely feasible is that it could (just about) be done with no additional stock. It would be a political decision and require public sector investment.

I think the point here is that the suggestions are for a charter operation, as opposed to a regular service that it possible to use with inter-available tickets. Also most of the above suggestions seem to start with ‘leaving aside the economics’.

Of course, ‘leaving aside the economics’ we could have had an hourly service to the Moon for the last 50 years.

 

[Chester1]

I think the point here is that the suggestions are for a charter operation, as opposed to a regular service that it possible to use with inter-available tickets. Also most of the above suggestions seem to start with ‘leaving aside the economics’.

Of course, ‘leaving aside the economics’ we could have had an hourly service to the Moon for the last 50 years.

Its an argument in favour of a "fantasy ideas" forum. Speculative implies that the ideas are plausible. Mark IIIs on chartered sleeper services would mean spending a fortune on repairs on stock that would only be used occasionally.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its an argument in favour of a "fantasy ideas" forum. Speculative implies that the ideas are plausible. Mark IIIs on chartered sleeper services would mean spending a fortune on repairs on stock that would only be used occasionally.

I thought exactly that too!

 

[AndyCK]

My question was around a theoretical charter service; I realise it will most likely never happen but I was curious as to whether it was theoretically possible. I thought that would be permissible when it's in a speculative (i.e. not necessarily based on information) forum.

Speculative implies that the ideas are plausible. Mark IIIs on chartered sleeper services would mean spending a fortune on repairs on stock that would only be used occasionally.

If I read the other thread correctly, WCRC and LSL have bought a few MK3 sleepers. If they're not all for spares, someone might be willing to spend that fortune to test the water on a charter service. Just a thought however, and not based on any other information.