Possibility of moving Fenchurch Street.

[Wolfie]

Fenchurch Street station may need to move

A Network Rail report into how to manage capacity on C2C services has suggested that they may need to move Fenchurch Street station.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

"A Network Rail report into how to manage capacity on the Essex Thameside region, operated by C2C has suggested that they may need to move Fenchurch Street station. The Essex Thameside corridor is a key rail route into London on the north Thames estuary serving towns such as Southend-on-Sea, Basildon, Grays and Tilbury as well as large catchments in East London in areas such as Barking and Dagenham.

It’s also shared between passengers and rail freight, and both are expected to increase by a third by 2050. Although the report was largely written before the pandemic, it has to look decades into the future, and you cannot make long term decisions based on a short term impact caused by the surge in home working. That’s likely to fade over time, so more rail capacity will be needed.

Long term plans to invest in the Thames Gateway area are also likely to see population increases which will put more pressure on the railways.

Increasing rail capacity, with more or longer, or more and longer trains helps reduce overcrowding on the trains, but more people on trains means more capacity is needed at stations. Three main bottlenecks are appearing, West Ham and Barking where people swap between lines, and the London terminus at Fenchurch Street."

An interesting article which discusses limitations at and around the current Fenchurch Street station site which could mean serious overcrowding by the mid-2020s. The possibility, funds permitting, of relocating the station to the current Tower Gateway site is among possible measures discussed.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But in the scheme of things, how critical is this? Surely there will be more pressing projects for any available money?

 

[Wolfie]

But in the scheme of things, how critical is this? Surely there will be more pressing projects for any available money?

I agree that there are likely to be competing demands.
Given the Govt has plans for further major developments in Thames Gateway on both sides of the Thames, the requirement for major infrastructure improvements are likely to get very pressing quite soon (given the lead time associated with such projects in UK).

Private Site

Edited to fix broken link.

 

[cle]

If anything was to be done, I'd think a Crossrail-type route would be best.

I always thought it would pair well with the Euston-Tring/MK services. 12 car and electric on both ends. That said, there is a major imbalance between frequencies - so potentially taking on the DC lines too, or do something crazy south of Harrow to connect into the Amersham/Aylesbury route too.

It would also provide a new trajectory through Central London. A station at City Thameslink and another at Holborn would have pretty solid coverage. It's basically the Euston DLR proposal.

I always understood Tower Gateway might be closed, with an underground DLR station built for Tower Hill instead, and trains all routed to Bank. In which case, there would also need to be a City replacement for Fenchurch St underground, which could likely connect in with existing stations.

 

[si404]

If anything was to be done, I'd think a Crossrail-type route would be best.

I always thought it would pair well with the Euston-Tring/MK services. 12 car and electric on both ends. That said, there is a major imbalance between frequencies - so potentially taking on the DC lines too, or do something crazy south of Harrow to connect into the Amersham/Aylesbury route too.

The 1940s radical plans had something similar, but instead of Euston it was Marylebone (and basically the Fleet line in-between the two termini) with a chord near Kenton to hook up to the WCML.

DC lines make little sense (short platforms, Bakerloo line providing ample capacity). The Amersham route issues would be sorted if the capacity limitations on the two routes further in are bypassed, but station lengthening will be hard in some cases (Rickmansworth especially, but Chesham as well).

 

[Ianno87]

But in the scheme of things, how critical is this? Surely there will be more pressing projects for any available money?

Depending on the land values involved in the area**, the scheme could pay for itself in flogging off land/development opportunities without impacting on anything else.

**Very much dependent on the post-Covid demand for Square Mile real estate, of course.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Could they combine through C2C services with Elizabeth Line over existing routes from the C2C lines onto the routes into Liverpool Street as Fenchurch Street service can go into Liverpool Street if their are any engineering works. ?

 

[Halish Railway]

(later edit - previous post beat me to it)
Would redirecting all C2C services to Liverpool Street work? I just wonder as post-Crossrail many of the platforms will be relinquished as the Shenfield metro services will be diverted into the new tunnels and even with all of these services there has still been room in the past to accommodate diverted C2C trains.

I’m not sure what will be done with the route from Barking to Fenchurch Street (maybe converted into a DLR route to Bank with some new stations in East London, Bow for instance).

 

[pdeaves]

Depending on the land values involved in the area**, the scheme could pay for itself in flogging off land/development opportunities without impacting on anything else.

**Very much dependent on the post-Covid demand for Square Mile real estate, of course.

I immediately thought of an ulterior motive of selling land off on the justification that it would pay for the scheme. Of course, they may have missed the boat now.

 

[Mikey C]

The article suggests that the Covid effect is temporary, but people working more from home is likely to become a permanent change in commuting patterns, making such radical schemes probably unnecessary.

Besides why would more people need to commute into Fenchurch Street itself, seeing that the passenger growth is primarily going to be in the Docklands and Barking Riverside locations? I agree with the article that Barking and West Ham will become bottlenecks without major reconstruction, but not further in.

 

[Ianno87]

The article suggests that the Covid effect is temporary, but people working more from home is likely to become a permanent change in commuting patterns, making such radical schemes probably unnecessary.

Besides why would more people need to commute into Fenchurch Street itself, seeing that the passenger growth is primarily going to be in the Docklands and Barking Riverside locations? I agree with the article that Barking and West Ham will become bottlenecks without major reconstruction, but not further in.

One could see existing Square Mile companies downsizing office space, but that space used by new entrants taking up space for the first time (i.e. more companies overall, each taking up less space)

 

[stuu]

If anything was to be done, I'd think a Crossrail-type route would be best.

I've always thought a (relatively) simple job would be to pair the C2C lines with the Windsor lines out of Waterloo. It would 'only' need three underground stations, City somewhere, Blackfriars/City Thameslink, and Waterloo. Single figure £bns

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If anything was to be done, I'd think a Crossrail-type route would be best.

I always thought it would pair well with the Euston-Tring/MK services. 12 car and electric on both ends. That said, there is a major imbalance between frequencies - so potentially taking on the DC lines too, or do something crazy south of Harrow to connect into the Amersham/Aylesbury route too.

If I've got my geography right, that would need to cross the Paddington - Liverpool Street crossrail route somewhere. That would be fairly challenging.

 

[si404]

Would redirecting all C2C services to Liverpool Street work? I just wonder as post-Crossrail many of the platforms will be relinquished as the Shenfield metro services will be diverted into the new tunnels and even with all of these services there has still been room in the past to accommodate diverted C2C trains.

We're looking at about 30tph needing to be accommodated. Even if Liverpool Street has the room to deal with that (it doesn't), getting through Stratford would be very tricky. Perhaps some could be routed that way (say 6tph via Dagenham Dock), allowing Fenchurch Street to stay afloat, but then you are just having more people changing trains at Barking (which the study highlights as having major pedestrian capacity problems) and Stratford, which is a total mess already!

Besides why would more people need to commute into Fenchurch Street itself

The Fenchurch Street problem is the Coopers Row exit (and if you close this one, the main entrance becomes a bottleneck) not being able to safely deal with flows at the busiest times and is very nearly there (pre-COVID) already - it doesn't take much growth to trigger it.

They don't expect much growth at Fenchurch Street - in fact they believe current (post assumed pre-2025 interventions) rail capacity is enough to happily serve the station's flows in 2050, whereas West Ham is 22 carriages short in 2025 (but the interchange remains safe for another two years after that - despite being very very busy even before the last 5 years of high growth) with their maximum desired crowding.

 

[mr_jrt]

It does seem strange to countenance very expensively moving the station when, as stated above, the answer is the obvious thing is to send some services underground. I'll stay out of the actual where discussion for a change, but hell, even just 2 or 4 underground platforms, even without an onward route would seem to solve the problem of platform capacity, abet that would probably exacerbate the problem of the volume of passengers using the various exits, so an onward route to distribute them would seem to be wise.

 

[cle]

The four platforms work very hard, if you're sending them underground, it shouldn't be to another terminus but to disperse and allow for growth / resilience.

My preference as mentioned is the Euston, but Windsor has some merit. Shorter underground stint. High frequency network with multiple termini at the other end. It would have to be dual-voltage stock, as Thameslink. Extensions from 10 to 12 car would be needed, and the Kingston Loopers would likely want to move - to keep it pure and clear from the SWML and pollution. Might raise the appeal of the Heathrow Southern works further, with a new direct link into the City and beyond.

How to get from Clapham (forget Vauxhall lol) down to an underground Waterloo station? Assuming we maintain that route and link...

 

[Robertj21a]

Is everyone assuming that volumes return post-Covid, despite so many working from home ?

 

[jopsuk]

I think I like the concept of sticking it all in a tunnel to the Windsor lines. It would need to be deep though, and quite where an eastern portal would be given the line is on a viaduct from near Bromley-by-Bow westwards is a tricky one, with a super complication in the shape of the Crossrail tunnels. A Limehouse station would still be desirable, the Fenchurch Street platforms could be a bit west with entrances from Bank/Monument
Waterloo low level would usefully include a Southwark entrance, Vauxhall and Queenstown Road would be simple Underground stations but the latter might have a link to the Northern Line?

Between such a system and Crossrail 2, effectively all inner suburban would be removed from Waterloo (mainline).

It's beguiling to anyone with a box of crayola. Lets do it!

(Bonus round: with the W&C much quieter, add platforms to it at Blackfriars)

 

[tbtc]

Some "cross rail" projects are about genuine demand to get from one side of the city to the other and create longer distance links.

Some are just about freeing up terminal platform capacity.

If this is more about the latter (how can you squeeze more capacity through the Fenchurch Street throat etc etc) then is there something to be said for linking it with the Cannon Street services?

It'd be a big "U" shape, rather than a straighter line from Essex towards Tring/ Windsor (the two main suggestions on here), and I don't think there'd be many people prepared to sit on a train all the way from West Ham to Woolwich Arsenal (given the direct DLR link) and certainly rail would never beat road for Dartford - Lakeside journeys...

...but it'd be combining two similar types of route (so potentially two similar types of stock, assuming that by the time this was built there'd be brand new trains), it'd be much cheaper than building a route all the way to Euston/ Waterloo - especially given the complexities of getting under/over two different Crossrail routes and various Underground tunnels.

Just my opinion, but I don't think that Euston has that many appropriate services to "match" to Fenchurch Street services whilst Waterloo will have lots of platform space freed up by Crossrail 2 (so seems less pressing - if you put all of the "suburban" Waterloo services to Crossrail 2 and to Fenchurch Street then you've got twenty platforms for just the long distance services, which seems a bit overkill). Whereas Cannon Street is more comparable in terms of services, would mean a much shorter "cross London" link, you could run a fairly high intensity service in each direction at rush hour.

(obviously this is assuming passenger volumes return to what they once were etc etc)

 

[Wolfie]

I think I like the concept of sticking it all in a tunnel to the Windsor lines. It would need to be deep though, and quite where an eastern portal would be given the line is on a viaduct from near Bromley-by-Bow westwards is a tricky one, with a super complication in the shape of the Crossrail tunnels. A Limehouse station would still be desirable, the Fenchurch Street platforms could be a bit west with entrances from Bank/Monument
Waterloo low level would usefully include a Southwark entrance, Vauxhall and Queenstown Road would be simple Underground stations but the latter might have a link to the Northern Line?

Between such a system and Crossrail 2, effectively all inner suburban would be removed from Waterloo (mainline).

It's beguiling to anyone with a box of crayola. Lets do it!

(Bonus round: with the W&C much quieter, add platforms to it at Blackfriars)

Actually if your scheme was done l would argue that the continued existence of the W&C would be questionable given that you have added serious mainline capacity between Waterloo and the City

 

[stuu]

How to get from Clapham (forget Vauxhall lol) down to an underground Waterloo station? Assuming we maintain that route and link...

There could be enough space immediately east of the West London line, there is a low-rise estate which could be bought up and knocked down. The east end is trickier, depends how steep a gradient is permitted

 

[Mikey C]

I imagine any tunnelling space below the City would be really restricted.

 

[Bald Rick]

I imagine any tunnelling space below the City would be really restricted.

It is. It’s essentially full now with Crossrail and the Bank ticket hall extensions.

The very best of luck goes to anyone looking to find spare land underground in the city that’s nearly straight and nearly level, 300m long and around 50m wide, with clear ground from either end to the surface for escalators, lifts, and emergency access, and land at ground level where these emerge that can be used as building compounds and most importantly entrance halls for passengers. And it needs to be aligned with the running tunnel, and that running tunnel also needs to be heading in the rough direction of the next station each way, which similarly must be aligned as well. And hopefully there’s not a river or some foundations or deep basements or poor geology or non-railway tunnels (there’s lots of those) in the way.

 

[Wolfie]

It is. It’s essentially full now with Crossrail and the Bank ticket hall extensions.

The very best of luck goes to anyone looking to find spare land underground in the city that’s nearly straight and nearly level, 300m long and around 50m wide, with clear ground from either end to the surface for escalators, lifts, and emergency access, and land at ground level where these emerge that can be used as building compounds and most importantly entrance halls for passengers. And it needs to be aligned with the running tunnel, and that running tunnel also needs to be heading in the rough direction of the next station each way, which similarly must be aligned as well. And hopefully there’s not a river or some foundations or deep basements or poor geology or non-railway tunnels (there’s lots of those) in the way.

Easy peasy huh.. lol. Seriously, a stark warning to the ambitious among us. Are there any disused bits and bobs that could usefully be repurposed?

 

[edwin_m]

The width of the rail plus DLR formation at Tower Gateway is only slightly more than that of the Fenchurch Street site, so without demolition of adjacent property I can't see it creating more than one extra platform (assuming all DLR trains are sent to Bank). In exchange for that most of those walking to City destinations will have 300m further to go, and it's not even any nearer the Tube. And I think the four track section, which is probably quite handy now to give quick platform re-occupations, would become too short for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2020 ==

Easy peasy huh.. lol. Seriously, a stark warning to the ambitious among us. Are there any disused bits and bobs that could usefully be repurposed?

It's not too far from the Post Office Railway

 

[London Trains]

the Kingston Loopers would likely want to move - to keep it pure and clear from the SWML and pollution.

Revive the CR2 Twickenham plan and have the planned Hampton Wick / Teddington (not sure which) terminators extend there. Then the Windsor lines are completely self contained (excluding Wokingham to Reading).

 

[Wolfie]

It's not too far from the Post Office Railway

Hmmmm.. methinks some tunnelling might be necessary... 1 seat per row isn't very efficient... Not sure that the museum or whoever looks after it would be too chuffed either...

 

[London Trains]

Vauxhall and Queenstown Road would be simple Underground stations but the latter might have a link to the Northern Line?

Have it run via Victoria instead of Vauxhall and Queenstown Road. Vauxhall is only so busy due to masses of people changing onto the Victoria line. Queenstown Road is not busy and can close - extend the Northern line Battersea extension to Clapham Junction to fix this. This will add the missing link between Victoria and Waterloo and relieve the Victoria line, the District and Circle Lines (Victoria to the City), the Northern line (people changing at Balham onto the Northern line to get to the City) and the Waterloo and City line.

 

[pdeaves]

1 seat per row isn't very efficient...

It will make 'social distancing' easy, though

 

[Wolfie]

It will make 'social distancing' easy, though

Depends on the separation between rows, lol...