Portsmouth Stations Query

[NathanPrior]

So on the 20th I'm heading down the Portsmouth. I've already got the tickets marked as to Portsmouth Harbour, however would I be able to use the outward one to double back on myself to go to Fratton after going to Portsmouth for a bit?

I was originally going to buy a straight ticket to Fratton but got conflicting information regarding the use of this ticket go to via Portsmouth Harbour first. National Rail website said I'd need a combo of 2 tickets but the TrainsCanBeCheaper site told me it was a valid route.

 

[sonic2009]

What tickets do you hold?

 

[NathanPrior]

What tickets do you hold?

New Eltham to Portsmouth Harbour Off Peak Return.

I'm just wondering if I can use the ticket to go back to Fratton then back to Portsmouth or wether just to buy a Portsmouth Harbour to Fratton return which won't cost me anything as I have a rail voucher to cover it.

 

[maniacmartin]

Assuming you don't have an Advance ticket...

What you are proposing is not permitted using a ticket to Portsmouth Harbour - once you've reached your destination you can't continue travelling!

Fratton is part of the Portsmouth Routeing Group (not to be confused with the Portsmouth Stations group, which it is not a member of). The routeing guide states that you may double back within a Routeing Group, "for interchange purposes only".

So if you had a ticket to Fratton, you could double back via Portsmouth Harbour, but only to change trains or use station facilities - you could not break your journey at Portsmouth Harbour. And obviously you'd have to arrive into Portsmouth Harbour on a train that did not call at Fratton, to be able to legitimately claim you needed to double back for interchange purposes.

 

[bb21]

You cannot use your ticket to go to Harbour, back to Fratton, back to Harbour again to pick up your return portion. The validity of the outward portion expires when you reach Harbour, and you will have used the validity between Harbour and Fratton on the return portion when you get to Fratton, so cannot go back to Harbour again.

The National Rail Enquiries website is correct. A ticket to Fratton cannot be used for doubling back via Harbour as it is in the destination routing point group. The group station rule is only applicable to intermediate routing point groups which contain neither your origin nor destination station.

 

[maniacmartin]

The group station rule is only applicable to intermediate routing point groups which contain neither your origin nor destination station.

Sorry, I missed that point. In that case, disregard my post above. It seems TrainsCanBeCheaper is not aware of this either.

 

[John @ home]

I was originally going to buy a straight ticket to Fratton ... TrainsCanBeCheaper site told me it was a valid route.

Are you sure?

When I use trainscanbecheaper to test whether NEW ELTHAM to FRATTON via PORTSMOUTH HBR is a Permitted Route, the response is:

From NEW ELTHAM to FRATTON via PORTSMOUTH HBR
Route doubles back through: FRATTON
Route doubles back
3.13m over min distance
Route used for check: New Eltham 0 Miles, HITHER GREEN 3.22, NEW CROSS 5.56, London Group 8.55, CLAPHAM JUNCTION 11.26, WIMBLEDON 14.58, SURBITON 19.4, GUILDFORD 37.32, HAVANT 73.45, Portsmouth Group 74.11.

 

[NathanPrior]

But if you do from Waterloo to Fratton via Portsmouth Harbour it's valid according. I'm not sure what other ways you can get there from New Eltham without going via London, but surely the London grouping shouldn't make a difference? It's all confusing atm.

 

[maniacmartin]

Odd, because if you search from Waterloo, you get this, with a green background, which bb21 has refuted:

I don't think the mileage to do the double back depends on whereabouts in London you come from!

From LONDON WATERLOO to FRATTON via PORTSMOUTH HBR
Route doubles back through: FRATTON
2.09m more than shortest route
Route used for check Miles Routeing Point
London Waterloo 0 London Group
London Group 0.02
CLAPHAM JUNCTION 2.71
WIMBLEDON 6.03
SURBITON 10.85
GUILDFORD 28.77
HAVANT 64.9
Portsmouth Group 65.56

 

[bb21]

I think it would be a bug worth reporting to TCBC.

 

[455driver]

Every train to Portmouth Harbour would have called at Fratton first so no you cannot double back on the same ticket, there are no trains that miss out Fratton (and/or Portsmouth and Southsea) on their way to Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[embers25]

I think it would be a bug worth reporting to TCBC.

Just tried Guildford to Upton (Merseyside) which is clearly valid from London on route Euston-Warrington Bank Quay-Chester-Shotton-Upton using map LC+CL but it says its not valid.So not the only bug.I even managed to get reservations that way.

 

[SickyNicky]

TCBC is making some assumptions here, which I think is where the confusion is coming from.

First, it is assuming that you are using the shortest route between Waterloo and Fratton, which it thinks is:

The shortest route with a regular train service, not including walks and transfers (72.39 miles):

• LONDON WATERLOO
• VAUXHALL
• QUEENSTOWN ROAD
• CLAPHAM JUNCTION
• EARLSFIELD
• WIMBLEDON
• RAYNES PARK
• NEW MALDEN
• BERRYLANDS
• SURBITON
• HINCHLEY WOOD
• CLAYGATE
• OXSHOTT
• COBHAM & STOKE D
• EFFINGHAM JN
• HORSLEY
• CLANDON
• LONDON RD GUILFD
• GUILDFORD
• FARNCOMBE
• GODALMING
• MILFORD SURREY
• WITLEY
• HASLEMERE
• LIPHOOK
• LISS
• PETERSFIELD
• ROWLANDS CASTLE
• HAVANT
• BEDHAMPTON
• HILSEA
• FRATTON

Secondly, remember that TCBC does NOT refer to timetables when checking validity - in the same way that the routeing guide doesn't. So it cannot know if all trains stop at Fratton.

Thirdly, the results are relying on the three mile rule, not the group station rule.

Fourthly, when you're searching for validity from Waterloo to Fratton via Portsmouth Hbr, it's returning the absolute shortest route, which includes a transfer to Victoria by tube and basically the same route from Clapham Jct. This is 71.2 miles, or 1.19 miles LESS than the shortest route by rail only.

So if you add the extra mileage between Fratton and Harbour (twice) to the mileage from Victoria to Fratton you find it is just over 2 miles more than the shortest route by rail from Waterloo. So the double back is allowed provided your train doesn't stop at Fratton.

This is all highly theoretical of course, and is clearly not going to be allowed in real life.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just tried Guildford to Upton (Merseyside) which is clearly valid from London on route Euston-Warrington Bank Quay-Chester-Shotton-Upton using map LC+CL but it says its not valid.So not the only bug.I even managed to get reservations that way.

This is a well know bug in the public routeing guide (although it is fixed in the electronic version, which is why you can get reservations).

In the public routeing guide you must travel through Runcorn routeing point on map CL,yet Runcorn East is not a member of the Runcorn routeing group, so the line between Warrington and Chester doesn't pass through Runcorn routeing point. Thus all routes that way will fail. This one's down to ATOC, I'm afraid.