Portsmouth Harbour Station - Run-around loop / Station Pilot

[Kein_Oreo]

Evening all,

Doing some research into Portsmouth Harbour station circa 1950/60, and with how cramped it seems, I was wondering if anyone knew how locos would move ends? I can't seem to find anything showing run-around loops or a station pilot. Thanks!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Most trains would be electric units.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the Signalling record society have a drawing, not sure of the date of it but there were no loco release crossovers at that time:

Portsmouth Harbour Signal Box

www.s-r-s.org.uk

I suspect the harbour station’s 5 platform layout, (roughly as we know it today but with P2 out of use), dates from electrification in the 1930s and that would be when the track layout was simplified.

 

[Gloster]

Pryer’s and Paul’s track diagrams show that there was no run around facilities after the 1937 alterations. Loco hauled trains would either require a turnover loco to come in from Fratton or a pilot, which would probably also come in from Fratton. There was no loco siding outside the station, although the fuel siding alongside 5 road could possibly be used (it was occasionally in the 1970s), I don’t know if it was possible to hold a loco on either the Gunwharf or Dockyard lines, but I doubt it. The layout of crossovers outside the station doesn’t look as though a train could be propelled out and then run round before propelling back in.

 

[30907]

The diagram shows a Dockyard line so probably shows the layout at electrification.
Once the Hampshire Diesels were up and running only a handful of steam workings remained, and these almost all worked in/out empty from/to Fratton. In the 1960 carriage workings just one summer Saturday train turned round in the platform.

 

[Magdalia]

Once the Hampshire Diesels were up and running only a handful of steam workings remained, and these almost all worked in/out empty from/to Fratton. In the 1960 carriage workings just one summer Saturday train turned round in the platform.

Prior to the Hampshire diesel scheme just about everything in the Fareham direction terminated/started at Portsmouth and Southsea.

Most trains would be electric units.

The limited amount of loco hauled traffic would be the advertised summer Saturday holiday trains, additional summer Saturday relief trains, and excursion traffic. Portsmouth Harbour was a popular destination for educational excursions. In most cases the coaches and the locos would go out to Fratton for servicing.

 

[75A]

In the early 80's we had a Sunday night turn @ Brighton where we'd go 'pass' to Fratton, take a 33 to the Harbour and go on the back of an incoming Bristol or Cardiff (sorry can't remember which), then take these ECS to New Cross Gate via Hove & The Quarry, only stop being @ Barnham to change Guards.
The 33 that brought the train in went 'light' to Fratton.

 

[Gloster]

The Dockyard line appears to have been removed c.1960, so may have been put out of use at an earlier date. The Gunwharf line was removed on 21-10-1962. (Source as above.)

In the early 80's we had a Sunday night turn @ Brighton where we'd go 'pass' to Fratton, take a 33 to the Harbour and go on the back of an incoming Bristol or Cardiff (sorry can't remember which), then take these ECS to New Cross Gate via Hove & The Quarry, only stop being @ Barnham to change Guards.
The 33 that brought the train in went 'light' to Fratton.

In 1980-1981 (until 4-1-1981) this was an 8 Set H that worked the 08.40 Salisbury-Portsmouth Harbour, 11.15 to Cardiff Central and 17.55 return, before heading off ECS to New Cross Gate at 21.43. Only thirteen minutes between arrival from South Wales and departure empty.

 

[75A]

The Dockyard line appears to have been removed c.1960, so may have been put out of use at an earlier date. The Gunwharf line was removed on 21-10-1962. (Source as above.)



In 1980-1981 (until 4-1-1981) this was an 8 Set H that worked the 08.40 Salisbury-Portsmouth Harbour, 11.15 to Cardiff Central and 17.55 return, before heading off ECS to New Cross Gate at 21.43. Only thirteen minutes between arrival from South Wales and departure empty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

That's the one.

 

[30907]

The diagram shows a Dockyard line so probably shows the layout at electrification.
Once the Hampshire Diesels were up and running only a handful of steam workings remained, and these almost all worked in/out empty from/to Fratton. In the 1960 carriage workings just one summer Saturday train turned round in the platform.

Having done a little more digging, and found some engine workings for 1958, a few more details:
1. Hauled passenger services to/from the Harbour were confined to summer weekend extras.
2. Van trains (and the twice weekly freight) are shown as being worked in and out by the same loco - so these must have been propelled one way, or running round took place using the crossovers in the throat (they were all in the small hours, and presumably the trains were short), or there was actually a release crossover.
3. There is no station pilot duty.

Slightly off topic: it was standard practice for train engines to propel ECS between Fratton carriage sidings and Southsea LL.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Looking at the summer Saturday workings for 1964, the usual method of working the passenger ECS stock to/from Portsmouth Harbour was to top and tail it from Fratton, with the train engine at one end and a 4MT 2-6-0 on the other. Once the train had departed, the ECS loco went back LE, usually to Fratton. If it was hauling the ECS away, it would come in LE, usually from Fratton.

Train engines were usually serviced at Fratton before taking up their next duty.

 

[33017]

In the 80s, all loco-hauled arrivals except 33/1+TC had a second loco follow the train in from Fratton which worked the next one back out. On the rare occasions there wasn’t a 33 (or other mainline loco) available, the Fratton pilot (08/09) came down and shunt-released the inward loco.

 

[Gloster]

From 1937 to 1968 the only crossover outside the station was roughly where the easternmost crossover is now. The SRS diagram seems to be of the 1946 box and there just isn’t the space or signalling to run around anything.

 

[75A]

h u

In the 80s, all loco-hauled arrivals except 33/1+TC had a second loco follow the train in from Fratton which worked the next one back out. On the rare occasions there wasn’t a 33 (or other mainline loco) available, the Fratton pilot (08/09) came down and shunt-released the inward loco.

We definately didn't follow the train in, we were already there waiting for it.

 

[30907]

From 1937 to 1968 the only crossover outside the station was roughly where the easternmost crossover is now. The SRS diagram seems to be of the 1946 box and there just isn’t the space or signalling to run around anything.

Thanks, that eliminates one option then - so propelled from Southsea seems the only option, assuming the diagram is correct. I'll see if the Sectional Appendix mentions it when I can next get to it.

Edit: Big Jumby 74 has done the necessary, and confirmed the surmise. it was permitted in both directions - useful for the couple of passenger workings into the Harbour.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks, that eliminates one option then - so propelled from Southsea seems the only option, assuming the diagram is correct. I'll see if the Sectional Appendix mentions it when I can next get to it.

I would think that attaching an engine to the rear at Fratton or bringing it in light would be the norm: propelling from Fratton (through three block sections), as it would have to be, would be a slow process on all those reverse curves. I would think that any convenient loco, pilot or otherwise, would be used: as it was just any available there would be no need to diagram one, although there might be something in the pilot’s diagram.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In my time other than Waterloo mail trains, the majority of LH services at Portsmouth Harbour were the Cardiff services, be they class 31 or 33 worked, but turn over locos were the order of the day at the Harbour, no long winded propelling moves by then AFAIR (mid 70's).
However the 1960 SA, table F, lists propelling moves that were permitted at that time (1960), in accordance with rule 149, as follows;

1) Fratton West to Portsmouth Yard:
via Down relief - 6 coaching stock or fitted vehicles. Brake van must be provided.
via Down siding* - coaching stock and freight vehicles. (* the road latterly known as the 'Back Road' I believe, under the wall).

2) Portsmouth Yard to Fratton West:
via Down siding - coaching stock and freight vehicles.

3) Portsmouth Yard to Portsmouth Harbour (DOWN) line:
6 coaching stock or fitted vehicles. Brake van must be provided. 7 ordinary length freight vehicles (with conditions).

4) Portsmouth Harbour to Portsmouth Yard (UP) line:
6 coaching stock or fitted vehicles. Brake van must be provided.

"Portsmouth Yard" (as above) is not a location description that I used, but I am assuming it was the goods yard, of which only three sidings now remain, and are now called Portsmouth & Southsea DCS (Down Carriage sidings) on the Down side as one enters the High level platforms on a Down service?

 

[Gloster]

"Portsmouth Yard" (as above) is not a location description that I used, but I am assuming it was the goods yard, of which only three sidings now remain, and are now called Portsmouth & Southsea DCS (Down Carriage sidings) on the Down side as one enters the High level platforms on a Down service?

Portsmouth Yard was the name of the signal box on the south side of the line at the Fratton end of Portsmouth & Southsea. It was at the station throat, roughly where the ramp up to the High Level starts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2024 ==

Looking at the summer 1958 Carriage Workings it seems that there was only one passenger train in the middle of the day in midweek: the 4-coach 11.45 to Cardiff that came empty from Fratton. There were odd, mostly non-passenger, trains the rest of the day, mainly in the dark hours. There were a fair few lengthy, 8- to 10-coach, workings on a Saturday, most of which went empty to and from Fratton.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Portsmouth Yard was the name of the signal box on the south side of the line at the Fratton end of Portsmouth & Southsea. It was at the station throat, roughly where the ramp up to the High Level starts.

Yes, thanks. Have just checked an old Control diagram I have and the box is shown simply as 'Yard' and was located between No 1 & No 2 DCS elecy sidings. Think there use to be a much larger yard there about at one time, but was closed in the 30's.
A couple of local instructions I have noted in a book I kept in my time. At the Harbour a max of 10 LH coaches could be accommodated, which makes sense as both the incoming train loco and a turnover loco could also be accommodated within the signals (p1 excepted of course), although 11 could be handled by prior arrangement, presumably as the turnover loco would block other platforms by occupying TC's, and had to be hand signalled out, so said loco's movements would have had to be planned very carefully around other services and done in double quick time to prevent delays to other services.
Likewise at Southsea Low Level, parcel trains (my note - as they predominated at the LL during my time) were restricted to a max of 10 bogies.

 

[nw1]

In 1980-1981 (until 4-1-1981) this was an 8 Set H that worked the 08.40 Salisbury-Portsmouth Harbour, 11.15 to Cardiff Central and 17.55 return, before heading off ECS to New Cross Gate at 21.43. Only thirteen minutes between arrival from South Wales and departure empty.

So presumably interworking between Portsmouth-Cardiff and East Grinstead/Uckfield peak services, I presume?

 

[Gloster]

So presumably interworking between Portsmouth-Cardiff and East Grinstead/Uckfield peak services, I presume?

Well, I reckon that they were used on the East Grinstead and Uckfield peak-hour trains Monday to Friday and then were available for other work at weekends. This set had come over to Clapham Junction from East Croydon on Friday evening, presumably straight after working back from East Grinstead or Uckfield, and on Saturday worked a return Waterloo-Exeter before doing the late Salisbury. Another 8 Set H worked a Brighton-Bristol and return on Saturday. I think it was a case of using coaches efficiently: the extra traffic on a weekday was on the peak-hour commuter trains, but at weekends it was to holiday areas and the like.

 

[nw1]

Well, I reckon that they were used on the East Grinstead and Uckfield peak-hour trains Monday to Friday and then were available for other work at weekends. This set had come over to Clapham Junction from East Croydon on Friday evening, presumably straight after working back from East Grinstead or Uckfield, and on Saturday worked a return Waterloo-Exeter before doing the late Salisbury. Another 8 Set H worked a Brighton-Bristol and return on Saturday. I think it was a case of using coaches efficiently: the extra traffic on a weekday was on the peak-hour commuter trains, but at weekends it was to holiday areas and the like.

Indeed, and a good example of the efficiency of the de-fragmented system that was BR !