"Portsmouth Direct" line

[Sun Chariot]

I thought the connection with Winchester was closed and lost years ago.

I think the comment "in a parallel universe" is for that exact reason.

 

[Wychwood93]

With regard to the Shalford Jn. South curve, which could have been useful:

Rail Map online - historic railways, railroads and canals

UK, Ireland and US historic railways, railroads and canals. Includes waggonways, tramways, stations, metro and narrow gauge lines displayed on an interactive Google Map.

www.RailMapOnline.com

Clicking on the curve for more info yields:

Shalford Jnc South Curve​

Earthworks appear on maps but it is likely that this line was never completed. Thanks to Bruce for the following information:

The L&SWR and LB&SCR had a cosy agreement for trains to Portsmouth via Southampton and Brighton respectively. Thomas Brassey built the "Portsmouth Direct" line as a private venture from Godalming to a junction near Havant. The LB&SCR objected as the L&SWR would have the vast majority of the traffic and so the L&SWR was reluctant to take the line over. Brassey persuaded the South Eastern Railway to put in a south facing connection so that trains could be run to Portsmouth via Redhill. The SER put in the embankment, forcing the L&SWR to take over operation of the "direct" line. This caused the infamous battle of Havant where the LB&SCR blocked the first L&SWR by chaining an engine to the tracks. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havant_railway_station

This is a direct quote from the Mitchell & Smith book... "A substantial bridge over the river Wey was constructed in timber ... built between the SER and the LSWR, facing towards Portsmouth. The second bridge was built, again in timber, but it was doubtful whether track was ever laid across it." C.F. Dendy Marshall "History of the Southern Railway" also doubts that track was ever laid on this spur.

The SER did have running rights southwards towards Godalming but (apparently) declined to attempt any sort of a service. Track might have been laid on it but there is no record of any service. I don't know how you represent a railway that (probably) nearly existed on your map.

Position 51.21476,-0.57814

 

[Taunton]

The Arun Valley peak services didn't call at Gatwick and still ran via Dorking until the mid 1980s when they were diverted to call at East Croydon which was a growing office district at the time. To maintain the arrival time at Victoria in the morning they ran non stop from Crawley to East Croydon then Victoria.

This however had not always been the case. You can see for example in the 1958 timetable (on Timetable World) the former arrangement, where the Arun Valley expresses left Victoria at 18 past the hour, that two of three ran via Dorking, and one in three via Three Bridges to Horsham. It was the 0918, 1218 and 1518 of the daytime service that went the Three Bridges way. Stopped at East Croydon, Redhill and Three Bridges, but not Gatwick Airport, which was open but not significant at that time. The hourly frequency was maintained for Victoria departures, and at Horsham and beyond. I believe this "one in three" arrangement had been in place since the line was electrified in the late 1930s. It was later they were changed to all go hourly via Dorking.

 

[contrex]

The "Portsmouth line" is still what the line from Peckham Rye to Horsham via Tulse Hill, Sutton, Epsom. Leatherhead, etc, is called on track diagrams, RAIB reports, etc, I think?

 

[Rescars]

Historically, was the LBSC or the LSWR considered to be the more prestigious route to Portsmouth. IIRC the LBSC was the one preferred by Queen Victoria when travelling between London and the Isle of Wight.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Have there been any regular services with first class seats calling at Sutton or Dorking North since the Arun Valley trains were rerouted?

Depends whether you mean “do they have seating marked as first class” or do they have seating marked as first class and the train is shown as having first class on timetables”. If the former all Southern Trains do; if the latter almost certainly not.

 

[Rescars]

Depends whether you mean “do they have seating marked as first class” or do they have seating marked as first class and the train is shown as having first class on timetables”. If the former all Southern Trains do; if the latter almost certainly not.

It was the latter I was thinking about. Declassified first class doesn't really count, just very pleasant to enjoy for the price of a standard fare!

 

[cinders&ashes]

The Meon Valley Railway was built as a shorter route to Gosport via Alton rather than via Eastleigh but it was always single line despite provision to be double track throughout. The fact it was a pre-Beeching closure shows how much of a basket case it was.

Basket case insofar as the stops en route between Alton & Fareham were/are low population (~1000) and volumes were low. Flash forward, however, and having a possible twin track non-stop service to Fareham and then Portsmouth/Gosport is much more appealing when the direct mainline averages around 53mph and is at capacity. And get stopping service for central Hants into the bargain.

 

[paul1609]

Basket case insofar as the stops en route between Alton & Fareham were/are low population (~1000) and volumes were low. Flash forward, however, and having a possible twin track non-stop service to Fareham and then Portsmouth/Gosport is much more appealing when the direct mainline averages around 53mph and is at capacity. And get stopping service for central Hants into the bargain.

The route via Alton would be incredibly slow. Even the route via the SWML and Eastleigh is normally slower than the Southern service to Victoria if you're travelling to Clapham Junction.

 

[cinders&ashes]

A stopper would be slow, but a service calling just at the big stops and running fast through Hants to Fareham should be decent for time given the alignment was conceived as a mainline. I used to get Southern service to S.Coast via Horsham, they run an 8 coach to Horsham then split with 1 service running fast to Barnham, the other as a stopper. A similar split at Brookwood would allow Ash Vale, Farnham and Bentley to be skipped by the faster one, which'd go Brookwood-Aldershot-Alton-Fareham. Whilst Farnham is a larger settlement it's smaller than Aldershot, the stopper wouldn't get there any slower than today's service and if they miss the split they get a chance to swap at Aldershot.
Stopper would then go on to serve Farringdon, Tisted, West Meon, Droxford & Wickham. All of those would have to have extra housing in return for a station, much like the arrangement for Welbourne Garden Village but on a smaller scale.

 

[paul1609]

A stopper would be slow, but a service calling just at the big stops and running fast through Hants to Fareham should be decent for time given the alignment was conceived as a mainline. I used to get Southern service to S.Coast via Horsham, they run an 8 coach to Horsham then split with 1 service running fast to Barnham, the other as a stopper. A similar split at Brookwood would allow Ash Vale, Farnham and Bentley to be skipped by the faster one, which'd go Brookwood-Aldershot-Alton-Fareham. Whilst Farnham is a larger settlement it's smaller than Aldershot, the stopper wouldn't get there any slower than today's service and if they miss the split they get a chance to swap at Aldershot.
Stopper would then go on to serve Farringdon, Tisted, West Meon, Droxford & Wickham. All of those would have to have extra housing in return for a station, much like the arrangement for Welbourne Garden Village but on a smaller scale.

The problem is that it's a long way round, Portsmouth Harbour is roughly 74 miles from Waterloo via the direct, 82 via Chichester and 88 via Alton.
The approach to Portsea island is also slowest from Fareham direction constrained by the former junction and the viaduct at Fareham and the Junctions at Cosham and Portscreek.
Good luck on getting planning permission to bulldoze your new railway and the thousands of new houses needed to justify it through the national park.

 

[Deepgreen]

Have there been any regular services with first class seats calling at Sutton or Dorking North since the Arun Valley trains were rerouted?

All trains today have some first class seats, but no first class is advertised. Since the Bognors went I don't think any first class has been advertised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2023 ==

As a shameless plug, here's a painting I did many years ago of a 4COR on the Portsmouth Direct route in the early 1960s.

 

[DelW]

Basket case insofar as the stops en route between Alton & Fareham were/are low population (~1000) and volumes were low. Flash forward, however, and having a possible twin track non-stop service to Fareham and then Portsmouth/Gosport is much more appealing when the direct mainline averages around 53mph and is at capacity. And get stopping service for central Hants into the bargain.

The Direct is currently well below capacity, with only 3tph south of Shalford Junction and 2tph south of Haslemere. Not only has the 2017 plan for 4tph throughout been abandoned, it seems that there is little or no chance even of 3tph being restored for a long while to come. It's the poorest service in decades, effectively 1tph for Portsmouth as the stopper is so slow as to be almost useless for end to end journeys.