Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[pokemonsuper9]

Probably the kiss of death to have said that!!

Yep, currently sat broken down at Wigan Wallgate blocking the platform towards Manchester

Edit: just overhead it's going to springs branch, they're kicking everyone off

 

[david l]

Yep, currently sat broken down at Wigan Wallgate blocking the platform towards Manchester

Edit: just overhead it's going to springs branch, they're kicking everyone off

769434 back in traffic today, together with 442/48/50, other 2 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU and 1 x 2 car DMU.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2025 ==

769434 back in traffic today, together with 442/48/50, other 2 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU and 1 x 2 car DMU.

Wed 26. 3 out today 442/448/450, other 3 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU and 2 x 2 car DMU.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

769434 back in traffic today, together with 442/48/50, other 2 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU and 1 x 2 car DMU.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2025 ==


Wed 26. 3 out today 442/448/450, other 3 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU and 2 x 2 car DMU.

Thurs 27. 3 started the day, 450/56/58 but 458 has pulled up lame this morning, and 769450 has also pulled up lame this afternoon. As this leaves only 1 in service, and therefore no rescue unit if that failed which is not allowed, 769456 has therefore been pulled from service which leaves 0. 156429 has replaced 769458, other 3 diagrams this morning were covered by 3 x 2 car DMU. Currently 2 diagrams with no replacement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2025 ==

Fri 28. 4 started the day, 434/42/48/56, other 2 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, 1 x 2 car DMU.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2025 ==

Sat 29. 2 have started the day 442/56, other 4 diagrams covered by 2 car DMU's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2025 ==

Mon 1 . NEARLY. 5 start the day 434/42/48/50/56. Other diagram covered by a HT class 156, but not one that has been around of late (444)

 

[Leyland Bus]

Had 769448 yesterday on the (delayed) 1558 from Bolton to Manchester Oxford Rd. Was an absolutely fantastic ride, really quiet, felt solid, really comfortable ride, had to remind myself it was a 769! Just a shame they're unreliable...

 

[GhostManDN91]

I've noticed it feels faster between Bolton and Wigan now on the 769s in electric too compared to diesel.

 

[david l]

Back to 4 today. 769450 not made it from yesterday. Other 2 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, and 1 x 2 car DMU.
Wed 3. 4 again, other 2 diagrams covered by 2 x 2 car DMU.
Thurs 4. 4 out, other 2 diagrams covered by 2 x 2 car DMU.
Fri 5.12 as 4.12

 

[Paul AC]

I've noticed it feels faster between Bolton and Wigan now on the 769s in electric too compared to diesel.

It's a lot faster, due to the much higher power available (about 1.4 MW in AC versus 780 kW in diesel, ignoring losses). I've never actually analysed any runs, but I guess the drivers have to watch the relatively low speed limit these days. There's usually more of a 'hot brakes' smell also, I wonder if brake pad wear has increased much?

 

[FrontSideBus]

They certainly were no slouch when they were 319's. I remember being quite impressed when they replaced 150/156 on the Liverpool-Manchester line.

 

[david l]

Although there were 4 out yesterday, for most (if not all) of the day 769458 was on diesel only, went to AN last night and is missing today.
4 out today, other 2 diagrams covered by shortformed 2 car DMU's.

 

[Gricer99]

Just 456 and 448 rostered today. One 4 car substitute. The rest are 2 car shortforms.

 

[david l]

Just 456 and 448 rostered today. One 4 car substitute. The rest are 2 car shortforms.

Not quite. 442 and 448 have come out to play later than normal, there appear to have been some very short term swaps this morning.
No 769's came from AN (2 booked), possibly due to an OLE incident in the Liverpool area this morning (doesn't help that they are 'maintained' so far away from their operating area) 456 appears to have started from NH (as booked), with the 3 SP diagrams being 2 car DMU's.
769442 and 769448 have entered service late (indeed 769442 bizarrely ran ECS Wigan -Ox Road and ECS back before starting in passenger service on 2W12 from Wigan Wallgate to Southport) whilst 769448 apparently started the day at Stalybridge! having missed its first couple of runs.
So the score at 12.30 is 3 out, 442/48/56, with the other three diagrams covered by 2 car DMU's. (cannot see a 4 car out)

 

[Wyrleybart]

Am I correct in thinking the ex TfW units have been at NT for the duration of the NT fleet exams, and are now stood down ready go back to rust at Long Marston. AIUI one of the pair covered three days diagrams and failed each day, but how did the other unit fare ?

 

[david l]

Am I correct in thinking the ex TfW units have been at NT for the duration of the NT fleet exams, and are now stood down ready go back to rust at Long Marston. AIUI one of the pair covered three days diagrams and failed each day, but how did the other unit fare ?

In theory they should have been, the original tender document for the additional 2 units was one from May/June until November with the other one from June/July until January 2026, although to be honest it did say that these dates were 'flexible'.
However the first one (769421) only enetered service on 11 July, failed on all three days in traffic- indeed never made it after lunch-time, was used as a 'training' unit at SP (ome engine only worked, and some other parts weren't present) and disappeared off to Allerton on 23 Sept, and is now sat there off lease, several paths to Long Marston in the system but not used.
The 2nd unit (769452) made its first appearance in traffic on 3 September, having arrived from Crewe IEMD a couple of weeks earlier. This one appeared at first to have been more reliable (not hard!), and was noted in traffic on a number of occasions, but hasn't been in traffic since 6 November. Don't know whether or not the lease has been terminated early on this one, or whether or not it may re-appear. So for lease periods of 6 months each, they so far have managed 2 between them!
These 2 units were supposed to cover and provide some resilience to the Northern 769 fleet, which were scheduled to go for c6 at Brodies in Kilmarnock (note this is corrosion, door controls and re-paint only - no work to bogies etc). This work was originally to start early in Spring 2025 and be completed by Jan 2026, thus allowing the usage and then release of the 2 ex-TfW sets. However even though the c6 work was late starting, the 2 ex-TfW sets were even later arriving. So far sets 769431/34/56/58 have been done, with 769424 currently there, leaving 769442/48/50 still to go, each unit is taking between 6-8 weeks so the work may take until Spring 2026 to complete.
In the meantime availability of the 'overhauled' Northern units has been (I'm being kind here) very poor, 769431 in particular (last out 2 September, waiting wheelsets and other parts removed to keep others in traffic) whilst 769456 also spent quite some time out of traffic awaiting a new transformer.
The silence and inaction from Northern on these units is deafening, it certainly doesn't seem like money has been well spent on the Lostock Jn-Wigan Station Jn electrification which apparently came in at north of £100 million, and these units are the only electric units used on this line.
In the meantime there are daily shortforms with 150/156's or anything else that NH can find.

 

[Gricer99]

For your 769 bingo cards, just the late numbers 448, 450 and 458 seem to be out today.

 

[86206]

For your 769 bingo cards, just the late numbers 448, 450 and 458 seem to be out today.

Eyes down.....Look in

 

[david l]

For your 769 bingo cards, just the late numbers 448, 450 and 458 seem to be out today.

769450 appears to have retired hurt, and sent to SP early.

 

[Wyrleybart]

In theory they should have been, the original tender document for the additional 2 units was one from May/June until November with the other one from June/July until January 2026, although to be honest it did say that these dates were 'flexible'.
However the first one (769421) only enetered service on 11 July, failed on all three days in traffic- indeed never made it after lunch-time, was used as a 'training' unit at SP (ome engine only worked, and some other parts weren't present) and disappeared off to Allerton on 23 Sept, and is now sat there off lease, several paths to Long Marston in the system but not used.
The 2nd unit (769452) made its first appearance in traffic on 3 September, having arrived from Crewe IEMD a couple of weeks earlier. This one appeared at first to have been more reliable (not hard!), and was noted in traffic on a number of occasions, but hasn't been in traffic since 6 November. Don't know whether or not the lease has been terminated early on this one, or whether or not it may re-appear. So for lease periods of 6 months each, they so far have managed 2 between them!
These 2 units were supposed to cover and provide some resilience to the Northern 769 fleet, which were scheduled to go for c6 at Brodies in Kilmarnock (note this is corrosion, door controls and re-paint only - no work to bogies etc). This work was originally to start early in Spring 2025 and be completed by Jan 2026, thus allowing the usage and then release of the 2 ex-TfW sets. However even though the c6 work was late starting, the 2 ex-TfW sets were even later arriving. So far sets 769431/34/56/58 have been done, with 769424 currently there, leaving 769442/48/50 still to go, each unit is taking between 6-8 weeks so the work may take until Spring 2026 to complete.
In the meantime availability of the 'overhauled' Northern units has been (I'm being kind here) very poor, 769431 in particular (last out 2 September, waiting wheelsets and other parts removed to keep others in traffic) whilst 769456 also spent quite some time out of traffic awaiting a new transformer.
The silence and inaction from Northern on these units is deafening, it certainly doesn't seem like money has been well spent on the Lostock Jn-Wigan Station Jn electrification which apparently came in at north of £100 million, and these units are the only electric units used on this line.
In the meantime there are daily shortforms with 150/156's or anything else that NH can find.

Thanks very much for the reply, and the summation. That really is shocking isn't it, with Porterbrook earning towards half a million by dragging a couple of "diesel only" 769s out of the scrapyard at Long Marston, fitting them with pantographs at Crewe and expecting them to be at least as good as NT's own fleet. And some people thought Northern would be much improved by being "renationalised".

 

[david l]

4 out today, 448/450/456/458. 1 x 4 car DMU and 1 x 2car (shortform) DMU covering.

 

[Jamesrob637]

4 out today, 448/450/456/458. 1 x 4 car DMU and 1 x 2car (shortform) DMU covering.

Could definitely be worse.

 

[amahy]

What hasn't yet been mentioned here, is the impact that the poor 769 availablity is having on other Northern routes, especially Blackburn to Headbolt Lane (where double units are sometimes detached to cover for a failed 769). All 6 Blackburn to Headbolt Lane diagrams are supposed to be 4 car sprinters, however over the past week, Northern have nowhere near been achieving this:

Today (10/12/2025) - 3x 4 car, 3x 2 car
09/12/2025 - 3x 4 car, 3x 2 car
08/12/2025 - 1x 4 car, 5x 2 car
06/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car
05/12/2025 - 4x 4 car, 2x 2 car
04/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car.
03/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car

So out of the last 7 days (not including Sunday, as the timetable is different), 3 days have had all diagrams short formed on Blackburn to Headbolt Lane.

(Apologies for the slight off topic, just outlining the disruption poor 769 availability is having on routes other than Oxford Road/Stalybridge to Southport).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What hasn't yet been mentioned here, is the impact that the poor 769 availablity is having on other Northern routes, especially Blackburn to Headbolt Lane (where double units are sometimes detached to cover for a failed 769). All 6 Blackburn to Headbolt Lane diagrams are supposed to be 4 car sprinters, however over the past week, Northern have nowhere near been achieving this:

Today (10/12/2025) - 3x 4 car, 3x 2 car
09/12/2025 - 3x 4 car, 3x 2 car
08/12/2025 - 1x 4 car, 5x 2 car
06/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car
05/12/2025 - 4x 4 car, 2x 2 car
04/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car.
03/12/2025 - 0x 4 car, 6x 2 car

So out of the last 7 days (not including Sunday, as the timetable is different), 3 days have had all diagrams short formed on Blackburn to Headbolt Lane.

(Apologies for the slight off topic, just outlining the disruption poor 769 availability is having on routes other than Oxford Road/Stalybridge to Southport).

While some of it is certainly due to 769s, the rate of short forms has gone up a lot without much changing for the 769s, so I'm not sure if it's entirely them

 

[david l]

3 out today, 448/50/58. Other 3 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, 2 x 2 car DMU (shortform).

As stated above, several shortforms elsewhere, what amazes me though is that on the Blackburn-Headbolt Lane route, if a 4 car does turn up, some (but not all) conductors will lock out two coaches because of non-maintained (not short) platforms at Orrell/Upholland. Would perhaps be better if some of the Headbolt Lane services were put back as a self-contained shuttle from the bay at Wigan Wallgate.

 

[thealexweb]

3 out today, 448/50/58. Other 3 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, 2 x 2 car DMU (shortform).

As stated above, several shortforms elsewhere, what amazes me though is that on the Blackburn-Headbolt Lane route, if a 4 car does turn up, some (but not all) conductors will lock out two coaches because of non-maintained (not short) platforms at Orrell/Upholland. Would perhaps be better if some of the Headbolt Lane services were put back as a self-contained shuttle from the bay at Wigan Wallgate.

Those conductors deserve praise for being sensible. If they are doing it again and again without incident it seems they are usable.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

As stated above, several shortforms elsewhere, what amazes me though is that on the Blackburn-Headbolt Lane route, if a 4 car does turn up, some (but not all) conductors will lock out two coaches because of non-maintained (not short) platforms at Orrell/Upholland. Would perhaps be better if some of the Headbolt Lane services were put back as a self-contained shuttle from the bay at Wigan Wallgate.

The rear two carriages are always locked between Pemberton (or Wigan) and Headbolt Lane due to the short platforms, but they're always available on the rest of the route.

 

[amahy]

3 out today, 448/50/58. Other 3 diagrams covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, 2 x 2 car DMU (shortform).

As stated above, several shortforms elsewhere, what amazes me though is that on the Blackburn-Headbolt Lane route, if a 4 car does turn up, some (but not all) conductors will lock out two coaches because of non-maintained (not short) platforms at Orrell/Upholland. Would perhaps be better if some of the Headbolt Lane services were put back as a self-contained shuttle from the bay at Wigan Wallgate.

Your point about Headbolt Lane becoming a shuttle has been discussed previously elsewhere on the forum, and the conclusion was that the connection between west and east of Wigan is needed for schools. I think off-peak it makes sense, with the Headbolt Lane extending to Manchester in the peaks, restoring the 3tph peak time service via Atherton.

 

[Halwynd]

Looks as if only 769450 is out today. 769458 started the day on the 06:19 Wigan - Southport but looks like it fell at the first hurdle.

Realtime Trains | 2F82 0619 Wigan Wallgate to Southport | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 2F82 0619 departure from Wigan Wallgate to Southport on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Most trains short-formed with a variety of diesel rickshaws.

 

[david l]

Looks as if only 769450 is out today. 769458 started the day on the 06:19 Wigan - Southport but looks like it fell at the first hurdle.

Realtime Trains | 2F82 0619 Wigan Wallgate to Southport | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 2F82 0619 departure from Wigan Wallgate to Southport on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Most trains short-formed with a variety of diesel rickshaws.

As above , 769450/58 started the day, but 458 failed on the 06.19 Wigan-Southport, 458 has subsequently gone to SP. As this would have meant that 450 was the last one standing, this is not allowed as if it failed there is nothing to clear the line so 450 was stopped at Southport having worked a Stalybridge-Southport, return diagram simply cancelled and a replacement (DMU) will take up its diagram later at Wigan to work to Southport ECS!
So, 2 started, 0 left as at 08.30. The other 4 diagrams are covered by 1 x 4 car DMU, and 3 x 2 car DMU (shortform). Nothing came off AN this morning (due to 'a problem at the depot') so the two AN diagrams were 156 units purloined from NH's seemingly magic pit.

 

[Geeves]

Another 4 car 150+156 combo came off Springs Branch at 1030 thankfuly

156402
156405
156421
156444
156464

150103

150114+150149
150121+156417

All the substitutes!

 

[Gricer99]

None at all rostered today, have they finally thrown in the towel?

 

[Elecman]

None at all rostered today, have they finally thrown in the towel?

Unlikely as they don’t have enough other stock to cover

 

[Gazbe]

While some of it is certainly due to 769s, the rate of short forms has gone up a lot without much changing for the 769s, so I'm not sure if it's entirely them

A lot of short forms are happening due to many ongoing factors apart from 769 availability.
There are a number of 195’s awaiting spares, 156’s with corrosion issues, as well as many other units requiring repair.